Dozy - Was your 'speculative' QFR for real, or just 'tongue in cheek'? It seemed to me like a plausable way to go more "mainstream" and be able to say in field service (if confronted) "we dont teach that everyone doesnt go to heaven. We just know the number that goes is smaller than the great crowd. Only Jehovah knows the actual number."
Did the heavenly calling cease in 1935? Not anymore!
by AnnOMaly 288 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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slimboyfat
Narkissos,
It is at least as incoherent (and, to me, even more obvious already) that (almost) all those who were prospective members of the "great crowd" when it started to be "gathered for survival" will not be part of it because they are already dead 72 years later. Who among current JWs ever thinks of that?
Hey, get with the script. What
have you been smokingold bright-coloured books have you been reading? The teaching is now that the "great crowd" consists of whoever happens to be alive at Amageddon. There is no expectation among Witnesses that those alive when Rutherford came up with the idea of the "great crowd" in 1935 will be alive when Armageddon comes.This does not qualify as an example of incoherence, if you were in the Ministry School I would give you a W for work harder.
Slim
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zack
Great thread. They (the GB) can change anything when they want and just issue some unintelligible explanation and tell the R&F to accept it.
When you point out their inconsistencies you are labeled an apostate. When they try and adjust for those very same inconsistencies, they're
to be treated as "the oracles" of God Almighty. When you can't understand their "adjustments" or accept them as "truth" your are quickly
dispensed with as a trouble maker. To JW's, the GB hold all the cards and can re-shuffle and re-deal whenever they want.
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bennyk
An interesting tidbit from WTS history is that in its original concept being part of the "anointed" class was a significant step beyond consecration. To be anointed was to be sanctified to sainthood. It was the "cream of the crop". It meant that you voluntarily "offered your bodies as a living sacrifice" (Rom 12:1), which was counted as a ransom payment for unredeemed mankind during the millennium (mystery doctrine).
But within this original concept, "anointed" members came out from among the temporary ranks of the "great multitude" (who were consecrated, but had not progressed beyond a "seed" in sanctification). Thus the two classes had existed alongside each other from day one.
Slight correction: The members of the 144 000, who were to share in the sacrifice (Mystery doctrine), were "sealed" -- NOT simply anointed. The members of the "Great Company" class were also considered "anointed".
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drew sagan
There is no expectation among Witnesses that those alive when Rutherford came up with the idea of the "great crowd" in 1935 will be alive when Armageddon comes.
While there is no expectation for it now, it was certainly there for a good many years. Just look at this quote:
"God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowd," including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." Survival Into A New Earth p. 185)
The adverage JW does not think about the complications regarding how the great crowd can appear in the 1930's and at the same time survive armageddeon.
In recent years the WTS has started to say things such as "it was during the mid 1930's that Jehovhas people recieved brighter light regarding the heavenly and earthly hopes". Of course, this is not what actually happened but to your adverage JW it sounds like it fits.
The WTS seems pretty happy with not having all these things line up in the most fitting matter. I believe they rather simply stick with member ignorace and not have to explain all of the details.
On the other hand, there could be some over confident men up in Brooklyn that actually feel Jehovah is going to help them figure this all out. If that is the case we could have quite an interesting shuffle in WT theology ;) -
under_believer
slimboyfat, I apologize for calling you a troll.
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M.J.
Slight correction: The members of the 144 000, who were to share in the sacrifice (Mystery doctrine), were "sealed" -- NOT simply anointed. The members of the "Great Company" class were also considered "anointed".
Ah, good catch. I mixed-up old and current terminology...Both classes were "anointed" and spiritually begotten as God's sons.
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under_believer
After reading all this, here is what I'm expecting:
1) They are going to redefine the "Faithful and Discreet Slave." It will no longer be a class of people, but instead will refer to "God's Earthly Organization," i.e. the Watchtower Society headed by the Governing Body. Not any individual people at the Society, but the Society and its daughter entities as a whole. If you think about it this is really just a formalization of the unspoken truth that Witnesses have been living with for decades.
2) There will still be two classes of Christians, an anointed class and an "other sheep" class, with separate and distinct callings and hopes.
3) 144,000 will no longer be a literal number.
4) The "replacement" theory will be (and is, as of now) discarded.
5) They will stop reporting the number of anointed (but they will still record it.)
I think the logical inconsistencies this brings up are easily surmountable for the believing mind. If they can survive the 1995 generation change they can survive anything. (Then again, have they survived? History will judge...)
The motive is to clear up several nagging inconsistencies and to consolidate power to the Society. Think of the positive effects for the Society:
* the anointed number not going down is ok--and in fact nobody (except Brooklyn) will know how many there are, but the number will tick up quite a bit.
* you can pick your destiny--some people really want heaven, especially converts from Christianity. Other people really want earth, usually those "raised in." There will still be more "other sheep" than "little flock."
* No ambiguity about authority, no potential threat of insurrection. If anointed are the same as other sheep except for they're going to heaven, everyone looks to the Slave, where the real power lies. Again this is just formalizing what's already the case.
* No restraints or restrictions on who can serve on the Governing Body. -
TD
There is no expectation among Witnesses that those alive when Rutherford came up with the idea of the "great crowd" in 1935 will be alive when Armageddon comes.
Maybe not. But creating a third group within the Christian Era who do not experience some form of salvation except that which Witness theology affords to those who lived and died before Christ does not (as yet) have a doctrinal foundation.
Witness literature up until now has been most emphatic that there are only two groups within the Christian Era.
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SirNose586
Underbeliever, I think your predictions have a good chance of occurring. The literal 144k limitation has been dashed to pieces by this new light[TM], so they have to create more new light to explain it all.