Trinity?

by BFD 142 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  gumb

  In the book "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English" (by Geza Vermes), on page 500, under the heading "The Heavenly Prince Melchizedek" (which is the title of one of the Dead Sea scrolls), the author makes this interesting comment:

  "The heavenly deliverer is Melchizedek. Identical with the archangel Michael, he is the head of the ‘sons of Heaven’ or ‘gods of Justice’ and is referred to as elohim and el. The same terminology occurs in the Songs for the Holocaust of the Sabbath. These Hebrew words normally mean ‘God’, but in certain specific contexts Jewish tradition also explains elohim as primarily designating a ‘judge.’"
• 

  XJW4EVR

  1- Your references to religious 'leaders' pales in comparison to the Bible., and

  I'm not sure what your point is with that statement, however going aginst , at that point, nearly 1900 years of Christian theology, and stepping out on one's personal opinion, gave us the entity we call the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

  In regards your second point, there is nothing in that chapter that contradicts the Trinitarian doctrine for a very simple reason, even though all the members of the godhead are co-equal, there is a voluntary subordination within them. The Son is subordinate to the the Father, and the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son. So the fact that the Son subjects Himself, voluntarily back under the Father does not negate the fact that He is God.

  What is more, may I suggest you read two books: Why You Should Believe in the Trinity by Robert Bowman, and Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses by Ron Rhodes by for you go popping off on how this prooftext SETTLES anything.

  This is what the Bible teaches, and it has been born out as true for the past 2,000 years, so resort to your humanistic pride and reason all you wish, but I will stay with the teachings of the Bible which clearly affirm a plurarity within the Godhead going back as far as Genesis in the Old Testament.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  greendawn

  But that doesn't make Him equal to the Father though He is way above all angels and humans.

  Of course the Son is in subjection to the law. This is why God became a man

  Mat 1:23 "Behold! The virgin will conceive in her womb and will bear a son, and they will call His name Emmanuel" (which translated is, God with us). Isa. 7:14

  How else would He be in all ways tested as we are? How else could He be the mediator Job cried out for?

  Job 9:30

  If I wash myself with snow, and make my hands clean with soap, 31 yet You will plunge me into the ditch, and my own clothes would abhor me. 32 For He is not a man, as I am, that I should answer Him; that we should come together in judgment; 33 there is no mediator between us, who might lay his hand on both of us. 34Let Him take His rod away from me, and let not His dread make me afraid; 35then I would speak, and not fear Him; for I am not so in myself.

  I don't see a problem with Him being in subjection to the Father, yet being fully God. This is His role. This is simply what God wills, not what He was forced to do by anyone. As our Judge, no one can say that He can't see both sides.
• 

  Kenneson

  Mad,

  Are all things now subject to Jesus? Isn't 1 Cor. 15 speaking of a future subjection? It is only when all things are subject to Jesus that he subjects himself to the Father. In the meantime, wouldn't you say he has all authority and that this makes him equal to the Father?
• 

  Pahpa

  Kenneson

  Evidently, Paul didn't think equality was involved...

  "Now when it says 'everything' has been put under him, it clear that this does not include God himself who put everything under Christ." Note "God" not "Father" is used.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  BFD, hello, how are you? I haven't read all of the posts on this thread yet, but I do want to say a few things.

  I want to commend you for studying the Bible for yourself without Watchtower publications. If you are looking for a very accurate, word-for-word translation, I recommend the New American Standard Bible (NASB) and the English Standard Version (ESV). The New International Version (NIV) is good also. The New King James Version (and the old King James Version) is also very word-for-word, however, it is based on the Majority Text, or Textus Receptus Manuscripts instead of the Manuscripts the other newer translations use. The general consensus seems to be that the Manuscripts used by the newer translations are more accurate than the Majority Text and Textus Receptus, however, I recommend that you do your own research into that.

  I also highly recommend that you get a good Concordance such as Strong's (I recommend the "Strongest Strong's") which also includes a Hebrew and Greek Dictionary. You should also check out more in-depth Greek dictionaries and commentaries on key Trinitarian verses of the Bible (such as John 1:1; John 1:18; Hebrews 1:3; John 20:28; Romans 9:5; Philippians 2:6; Colossians 1:15-18; Hebrews 1:8; John 5:23; John 10:30).

  I have researched the Trinity and Deity of Christ more than any other Bible doctrine. I have written a lot about the Scriptural teaching of the Trinity on this website, and here some links to some of my Trinity threads which you will hopefully find helpful. Remember, never believe what I (or anyone else) say without comparing it to the Scriptures (Acts 17:11; 1st John 4:1; Galatians 1:8):

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/69282/1.ashx ("All About The Biblical Trinity")

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/124519/1.ashx (All About John 5:23)

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101627/1.ashx (Questions about the Trinity)

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/124384/1.ashx (More about the Deity of Christ)

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/48111/1.ashx (What does the Bible say about Jesus Christ?)

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/49159/1.ashx (All About Jesus Christ)

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/45177/1.ashx (Is Jesus Christ the same as Michael or another angel?)

  What is the Relationship between The Father and The Son?

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101627/1763421/post.ashx#1763421

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101627/1763437/post.ashx#1763437

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101627/1823022/post.ashx#1823022

  I very highly encourage you to download the absolutely FREE e-Sword Bible Software at http://www.e-sword.net . I use this Bible software all of the time. It has helped me tremendously in all of my Trinity studies, especially the FREE Strong's and Thayer's Greek dictionaries you can download for the e-Sword program, along with the 20+ Free Bible translations you can download!

  If you have any questions at all about the Trinity and Deity of Christ, feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] or you can Private Message me on this website.

  Here are some of the most important Scriptures proving the Deity of Christ:

  John 20:28-29 (ESV): Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

  John 8:58-59 (ESV): Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

  Colossians 2:9 (ESV): For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

  Colossians 1:16-17 (ESV): For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

  Romans 9:5 (ESV): To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

  John 1:1-3, 1:14, 1:17-18 (English Standard Version): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

  1st John 1:1-3 (ESV): That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

  1st John 5:20 (ESV): And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

  John 5:18, 5:22-23 (ESV): This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. ... The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son,just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

  John 10:29-30, 10:33 (ESV): My Father ... is greater than all, ... I and the Father are one." ... The Jews answered him, ... we are going to stone you ... for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

  John 14:8-10 (ESV): Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

  Hebrews 1:6, 8 (ESV): And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." ... of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

  Acts 20:28 (ESV): Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

  Macgregor Ministries Web Pages on the Trinity that really helped me when I first started doubting the Watchtower Society:

  "Jesus Is GOD": http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/realjesus2.html

  "Jesus Christ -- My Lord and My God!": http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jesus_lord.html

  "Jesus Christ is God!": http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jesus_god/jesus_is_god.html

  "How Many Gods Do You Believe In?": http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/howmanygods.html

  "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Real Jesus": http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jws_real_jesus.html

  "Could Jesus Be "a god"?": http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/could_jesus.html

  "What Does the Title 'Son of God' Mean?": http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/son_of_god.html
• 

  Kenneson

  Pahpa,

  Everything is to be subject to Jesus before he subjects himself to God. Has this happened yet?
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  I also highly recommend you check out these web pages for more information on the difference between Christ's RANK and Christ's ESSENCE or NATURE:
  

  http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn14_28.htm

  http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/SPROUL19.HTM

  http://www.tektonics.org/guest/psfuncsub.html

  http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=235

  The Father, The Son, and The Spirit are Co-Equal in the sense that they have equal essence (Nature), attributes, and qualities, AND they all deserve equal worship, praise, honor, and glory from humans and angels. But they each have different roles or positions within the Godhead.

  Jesus Christ made the Deity of Christ a matter of (eternal) life or death at John 8:24:

  John 8:24 (LITV):

  Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.
• 

  heathen

  I think John 1:18 puts in a way where it's obvious that nobody had actually set their eyes on the almighty God .

  That be it for me in this discussion .
• 

  BFD

  Thank you, Heathen. I really do appreciate your part in this discussion.

  BFD