LittleToe said:
UnDFed:
Sorry to tell you this, but you've lost sight of love. 1Cor.13 (esp v13), also 1John.4.
I'm sorry you feel you that way. I am absolutely NOT downgrading LOVE at all (the true Biblical Love, that is). But I believe you have lost sight of the Apostle Paul's and John's inspired teachings and commands about TRUTH and DEFENDING THE FAITH against false doctrines and false teachers. I will post those Scriptures below.
You keep focusing on the Scripture which says God is Love, which is very true. But, you can't just grab onto one Verse and overlook hundreds of other verses. The Bible also says very clearly that Jesus is THE TRUTH, and that God's Word is TRUTH.
Why did Jesus say "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free"?
Why did John say that we must not even welcome someone who rejects the truth about who Jesus Christ is? Why did John so strongly condemn those who denied the truth about Jesus -- why did he call them ANTICHRISTS?
I guess we can just throw sound exegesis out the window and put our trust in a false Jesus and a false god and everything is perfectly fine as long as we have "love"? Who needs to "Defend the Faith" like Paul said? As long as we have "Love" then Truth doesn't matter?? Where does the Bible teach anything like that?
I hope I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
LittleToe said:
The simplicity of faith doesn't include an indepth understanding of the Trinity. If you say it does then I'll condemn you for putting a stumbing block in front of the brethren...
I never have said that you have to have an "in-depth" understanding of the Trinity to be saved (i.e. receive eternal life). I have said exactly what Jesus Christ said -- that you must believe in Him (including His DEITY and His TRUE identity; see John 8:19 and 8:24) and Him alone for salvation. If you do not trust in the Jesus who is GOD, then you are trusting a FALSE GOD, an IDOL, a DIFFERENT JESUS, and that will not save anyone ever. Period. If you can't handle the truth of God's Word, so be it.
I am NOT saying that you have to have a deep, "in-depth" understanding of the Deity of Christ to be saved. I have never said that. But, any "Jesus" that is not God by Nature is a FALSE JESUS who did NOT die for you and cannot save you.
Loving a FALSE GOD with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength will end up landing a person in Hell. Why do you think Jesus and Paul and John warned so strongly against FALSE MESSIAHS? Why did Jesus speak about Gehenna so much?
LittleToe said:
I'll condemn you...
You haven't a clue what John had in mind, and he's been dead for 1900 years and wasn't the most profuse of writers.
You sure made some strong statements for a person who is so strongly promoting "love."
LittleToe said:
He never used the statement "Very God of Very God". If he had it might have cleared a few things up.
He never used that exact phrase, but it does not take a rocket scientist to understand exactly how John used the phrase "Son of God" in all of his writings, just take a look below:
John 20:28-31 (ESV): Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
In John chapter 20, John equates the word "God" with the phrase "Son of God," and says that the purpose that he wrote his Gospel was that everyone would believe Jesus is The Son of God.
John 5:18 (ESV): This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 1:1, 14, 18 (ESV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only [begotten] Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... No one has ever seen God; the only [begotten] God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
In John chapter 1, John wrote that The Logos (Word) was God and that He was The Only-Begotten Son of The Father, and that He was The Only-Begotten God next to The Father. Thus, once again, John showed that the unique way that Jesus is The Son of God makes Him GOD as well. No one else has been begotten by God the way Jesus has been. Everything else was CREATED -- The Logos was BEGOTTEN.
1 John 5:20 (ESV): And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Once again, John says that The Son of God is The True God and Eternal Life. He equates "Son of God" with "True God" yet again.
John 19:7 (ESV): The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God."
The Jews absolutely understood that the unique way that Jesus was claiming to be The Son of God meant that He was claiming to be equal to God.
LittleToe said:
I'm a Trinitarian, as yourself, but I know that I didn't believe it when I was converted - it came later as I believe my mind was enlightened on scripture - my starting point was simply acknowledging that Jesus was far more than I had been raised with as a JW and a growing desire to pray to him. If you want to raise up high hurdles for folks then prepare to be lambasted, from scripture if necessary...
I never said you had to believe THE TRINITY to be saved (especially not in an "in-depth" way). I have said that you have to believe the Deity of Christ (though not in any in-depth way).
You say that when you were converted you only believed that Jesus was "far more than" the JW's teach. But, let me ask you something. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus is the second-highest Person in existence next to Jehovah, and that He helped make all things, and that He deserves some level of "obeisance"/"worship." So, if you believed that He was "far more" than that, wouldn't that mean you believed Him to be on an equal level with The Father? After all, if you are "far more" than the second highest Person in existence, wouldn't you have to be the highest or equal to the highest?
My point is, you may not have called Jesus "God," but you (I'm assuming) in essence believed Him to be "far more than" the second highest Person in existence, correct?
If we give up the battle for truth, Satan has won.
Here are Scriptures where Paul and John and Jesus command us to DEFEND THE FAITH:
John 4:23-24 (ESV): But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 5:33-34 (ESV): You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
John 8:31-32 (ESV): So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
John 8:44-47 (ESV): You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
John 5:38-43 (ESV): and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
Jesus Christ plainly told the Pharisees that they did NOT have the love of God within them BECAUSE they refused to come to Him and believe the truth of the Scriptures about Jesus. You CANNOT have the love of God within you UNTIL you have believed the truth of the Scriptures about Jesus and come to Jesus.
Revelation 2:2 (ESV): "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
Revelation 2:6 (ESV): Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Revelation 3:19 (ESV): Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.
Luke 17:3 (ESV): Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him,
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (ESV): This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (ESV): and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 4:1-5 (ESV): I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Ephesians 5:11 (ESV): Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
I will post more soon. I recommend carefully examining those verses (Acts 17:11).
