Yes the Son is Divine no doubt about that after all everything was made through Him and for Him and after the ascencion He sits on the throne of God. But that doesn't make Him equal to the Father though He is way above all angels and humans.
Trinity?
by BFD 142 Replies latest watchtower bible
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nvrgnbk
Yes the Son is Divine
Isn't this what the original debate was about? Of what substance was the Son? It's become so complicated. To note an observation by LT, James Thomas' approach to the whole matter of God would seem applicable here. Bottom line- love.
Nvr
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LittleToe
When you dwell in eternity does equality, as we understand it in human terms, have any meaning whatsoever?
I'm getting married in May, acquiring a wife and daughter. We are all of the same substance - human flesh. We will comprise a family unit and yet all have different roles. In what sense would you say we are and are not equals? Before you answer that, pause to consider the backlash you might get from my Fiancee
This whole subordination thing is a complete travesty. It misses the point entirely. Ironically we seem to make more of an issue of it than God does...
If you lived in eternal and perfect love would you give a hoot as to who is supposed to be better or greater than you, or not, as the case may be? IMHO raising the point above a peripheral issue obfuscates more important matters and missed the fact that our finite minds cannot comprehend the infinite anyway.
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nvrgnbk
If you lived in eternal and perfect love would you give a hoot as to who is supposed to be better or greater than you, or not, as the case may be? IMHO raising the point above a peripheral issue obfuscates more important matters and missed the fact that our finite minds cannot comprehend the infinite anyway.
Not sure if you're talking to me LT but if you are, we're misunderstanding one another. I think we're in agreement. I'm not sure you're seeing it that way. I'm going to bow out before I'm further misunderstood, for I have great respect for you. I love seeing all of your warmth about the wife and the daughter. That's what God is all about my brother. Accept my .
Nvr
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Kenneson
If the bottom line is "God is love," then we need to ask several questions. Is God eternal love or was there a time when he was not love? If there was a time when he was alone, he could not have loved because he would have had no object for his love, unless he was narcissistic and loved only himself??? Yet that is what anti-Trinitarians would have us believe.
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LittleToe
Nvr:We're on the same page. I was addressing GreenDawn and others, but forgot to preface my comments with a name.
Kenneston:Agreed. And as has been stated before, it takes a minimum of three for the comment to be accurate. One to give, one to receive and one to observe and verify.
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XJW4EVR
first off I'm not a bucko
Heathen, first let me appologize. I was attempting to be humorous, something I forget does not translate well in written format. Please accept my apologies.
secondly you haven't listed your esteemed scholars that come to these profound conclusions of yours .
The list of commentaries I can cite begins with Matthew Henry .
Observe the startling question, Adam, where art thou? Those who by sin go astray from God, should seriously consider where they are; they are afar off from all good, in the midst of their enemies, in bondage to Satan, and in the high road to utter ruin. This lost sheep had wandered without end, if the good Shepherd had not sought after him, and told him, that where he was straying he could not be either happy or easy. If sinners will but consider where they are, they will not rest till they return to God. It is the common fault and folly of those that have done ill, when questioned about it, to acknowledge only that which is so manifest that they cannot deny it. Like Adam, we have reason to be afraid of approaching to God, if we are not covered and clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Sin appears most plainly in the glass of the commandment, therefore God set it before Adam; and in it we should see our faces. But instead of acknowledging the sin in its full extent, and taking shame to themselves, Adam and Eve excuse the sin, and lay the shame and blame on others.
John Calvin:
"And the Lord God called unto Adam." They had been already smitten by the voice of God, but they lay confounded under the trees, until another voice more effectually penetrated their minds. Moses says that Adam was called by the Lord. Had he not been called before? The former, however, was a confused sound, which had no sufficient force to press upon the conscience. Therefore God now approaches nearer, and from the tangled thicket of trees draws him, however unwilling and resisting, forth into the midst. In the same manner we also are alarmed at the voice of God, as soon as his law sounds in our ears; but presently we snatch at shadows, until he, calling upon us more vehemently, compels us to come forward, arraigned at his tribunal. Paul calls this the life of the Law, when it slays us by charging us with our sins. For as long as we are pleased with ourselves, and are inflated with a false notion that we are alive, the law is dead to us, because we blunt its point by our hardness; but when it pierces us more sharply, we are driven into new terrors.
John Wesley:
Where art thou? - This enquiry after Adam may be looked upon as a gracious pursuit in order to his recovery. If God had not called to him to reduce him, his condition had been as desperate as that of fallen angels. I am not supplying links, as a simple Google of "commentaries of Genesis 3" will get you to these cites. Why should I have to do all of the work to educate you? These are just a few of the commentaries I was able to find online. For Ellicott, Lenski, Godet or MacArthur, I would have to go to thelogical seminary library and look them up. I won't have any free time to do that until the weekend. So you'll pardon me for not giving you a full citation until then.
I think you are missing the point there as well. Jesus did not say he was God , he's merely stating he was in union with Gods purposes
John 10:30-33 "I and my Father are one."
How could you not believe he was the messiah after all the things he did in front of their eyes?
I think it is interesting that John records the Jews response and understanding to what Jesus was saying, and did not write anything that would correct their understanding nor affirm yours.
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
So again, I will stand with historical orthodox Christianity, and not a rationalistic view of the Bible.
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Mad
Clever reply, XJ! Quick synopsis:
1- Your references to religious 'leaders' pales in comparison to the Bible., and
2- If you expect anyone to believe Jesus is God because the Jewish Clergy made that mistake - and Christ CORRECTED them (altho they didn't accept the correction), then you need serious help!
" God" is the term everyone of ALL faiths use to describe the Being with Ultimate Power & Authority - which even CHRIST our LORD doesn't have! What he has was GIVEN, not returned. And if the Bible means anything at ALL to you, it settles the matter WITH NO ROOM FOR SENSIBLE ARGUEMENT, when it says at 1 Cor 15:
24-T hen -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25 f-or it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26- the last enemy is done away -- death;
27- for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28- and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Can you accept this- or are you going to fight to support what your church- or imagination- teaches you???
Agape,
Mad
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Warlock
Can we get Narkissos in here, please?
Warlock
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gumb
"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30-33)
"’I and the Father are one.’ The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.’" (New American Standard Bible)
Here Jesus speaks of "the Father" (God) and himself as being "one." John 17:22 & 23 shows that this is a oneness or unity of purpose rather than a oneness of being, for Christ's disciples are spoken of as being "one as we [the Father and Jesus] are one." When the Jews (not Jesus) claimed that he was "God", Jesus corrected their assumption by quoting Psalm 82:6, which speaks of human judges as being "gods", and phrasing a question in such a way as to ask them how he could possibly be accused of blasphemy since he said "I am Son of God" (not "God"). If he were really God himself then he would not have tried to correct their view.
It is worth noting that in the ancient Greek text from which our translations of the Bible are made, the word for "god" ("theos") is lacking the definite article (i.e. "the") which usually accompanies "theos" when reference "the" Almighty God, which means that a legitimate translation could be "a god", rather than "God." Such a translation would tie in well with Jesus’ reference to "gods", for God himself is not part of a collection of minor "gods" or spirit beings or human judges, since there is only one Almighty God. At the time that Jesus lived on the earth people understood the word "god" to reference someone with real (or imagined) superhuman powers, or a divinely appointed position of authority. In ancient Rome, emperors were sometimes called "gods."