The Need To Question Atheism

by The wanderer 142 Replies latest jw friends

sass_my_frass

Wow, I missed all the fun! The great thing about turning atheist is that I don't feel compelled to convert others anymore. Conviction and passion, I'll bet that's what god is looking for. Good on you Vinny, it's great that God is working out for you - for real, all the best with that. It didn't work for me, so I let it go, that's the great thing about life - we get to choose.
I'm returning to one of Wanderers questions about aspects of the meaning of life (hopefully Wanderer is still reading!); specifically how can it be that the only meaning, without god, is to procreate, and that we're therefore born to die? Prior to humans developing the ability to think things through, yeah that's probably all there was; breed and die. But since we're trying to work out what the meaning of our life could be, that doesn't apply to us... we're a highly advanced species. We can be creative, we can love, show compassion, develop our talents, improve our community, research, develop new technologies... To me, these human endeavours are the stuff and meaning of life, and you can do them with or without god in your life.
Re being born to breed: not necessarily. I've decided not to breed; I love kids but I think the human population has reached its useful maximum and I'll do my part. If my maternal instincts go into overload I'll adopt or foster - there are plenty of kids in poorer countries who could use a chance.
That's just a personal choice, but again, one that a human can make with regards to the purpose of life - it doesn't have to be about passing on the genes; for some people life is about personal growth, and the contribution you can make to the world. My hubby and I have a little charity project in Fiji installing solar and wind-powered lighting; our little systems are replacing fossil-fuel powered generators. We do a lot of conservation and land rehabilitation work too. This is part of what gives our lives meaning.
You've got to find your own formula. You might find meaning just in that journey. I'd recommend though; avoid the compulsion to find something right now and stick with it. As a JW I liked the simplest explanation, and for it to be handed to me without any effort of my own, and loved that I could say 'great, here's everything I need in life right here in this little space'. Now, I just love to learn and grow - another part of what gives my life meaning.
nvrgnbk

I'm only 17,
This has nothing to do with the topic. I just wanted to say, LtCmd.lore, I am impressed with your keen intellect and reasoning ability at such a young age. I predict you will go very far in life.

I've been noticing that too! LtCmd.lore is one smart little bastard!
Nvr
proplog2

Vinny:
SINCE it is impossible to determine whether an action is the result of either omniscience or omnipotence it is THEREFORE impossible to make the assertion that an action is the result of an entity possessing omniscience or omnipotence.
You are free to imagine such an entity in your mind or by definition. But since there is no way of knowing in the real world whether such an entity actually meets those criteria you can say that it is empty of meaning or in other words incoherent.
At the same time I have never denied that there are causes in this universe. But you are saying-that SINCE we don’t know what caused something WE REALLY DO KNOW WHAT CAUSED IT- GOD. That is contradictory.
You make reference to the idea that God isn’t going to show up on my doorstep to prove that he exists. I agree with you on that 100%
nvrgnbk

You make reference to the idea that God isn’t going to show up on my doorstep to prove that he exists. I agree with you on that 100%
This is a major breakthrough! I think we've all found common ground on this point. Alas, JWD is
saved! The atheists and the God-Believers can put down their weapons!
The Civil War of 2007 has ended at last!
Nvr
LtCmd.Lore

Found it:
This is perhaps the crux of my argument then; NOBODY created God, because according inspired scripture, God had no beginning, hence eliminating the need for a cause altogether. This is the only example, the one sole instance where this principle would apply. All other features of the universe including the earth as well as all life on the earth, the spirit world and anything else anywhere, had a beginning and thus demands a cause. God, the intelligent designer himself, exclusively, is this one sole exception.
That's called special pleading: when you say that "everything had a cause except god".
It doesn't answer ANYTHING, it just gives you something to say that even you don't understand. It's not an answer, its a fake reason for you not to give an answer.
I could just as well say that the corvette didn't form they way you said, but instead, it was there before the begginning of time itself, and that would make more sense to you?
You: "I regect that the corvette could have formed by chance, it must have been designed."
Me: "OK if you say so, it didn't form by chance at all, but it wasn't designed either. It just simply always existed, it didn't have a beggining, therefore I'm exempt from having to explain it. Hah, I win, I'll go gloat now because your so ignorant."
LTCMD.LORE says:..." All us atheists claim to have on our side is logic, reason and science."

***********BWAAAHAAHAHAAAHAAHAHA

AAAAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAH

HEEEEHEHEHEEEEHEHEHHEHEHHEEHHHE

YOU'RE KILLING ME HERE, O' YOUNG 17 yR. OLD ONE.
That's a very well thought out arguement you have there.
But despite that spectacular show of brilliance, you ignored what I said directly before and after that.
Namely: So how come no religious leader, in the past several thousand years, has been able to prove their ~~theory~~ hypothesis by creating new life forms? __what you quoted__You claim to have an all powerfull diety and an army of angels on your side, but you expect us to be the ones with the astounding mounds of evidence with exremely expensive experiments to back it up.
The only 'evidence' you have is that your favorite out of the countless number of holy books says "God did it and he didn't come from anything so stop asking or you'll go to hell fool."
There is NO LOGIC and NO REASONABLENESS to your claims that all intelligent life and all organized systems and planets and stars galaxies just happened to fall into place without any intelligent force behind it.
Once again you are switching topics, not evolution, not abiogenesis, but now it's the big bang.
Anyways, there is NO LOGIC and NO REASONABLENESS to your claims that all intelligent life and all organized systems and planets and stars and galaxies just happened to fall into place due to the whims of some immortal secretive fairy guy described in an old book written thousands of years ago.
In other words, your knowledge about the nature of the universe is no more advanced then that of a bunch of nomadic tribesmen who thought epilepsy was caused by demons, and leprosy was a curse from the aforementioned fairy guy.
Folks, our little atheists also believe that the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time.
Exactly, pretty cool huh? But that's more of a testament to mans genius than gods. However your problem is probably based on your limited knowledge of gravity that I mentioned earlier.
Each individual star isn't individualy created by a miracle from god as the bible would have you believe. Stars form from clouds of debris left over from that cosmic explosion, the particles and matter are drawn towards each other by their own gravity, they collect and form a star, there is nothing random or miraculous about it. It's a natural, predictable, observed, proven fact. They're still doing it down to this day, and they will continue to do so in the future. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_formation
Do you think there is an intelligent mind behind stalagmites? They are very pretty, and organized structures, but they form without any mind guiding them, they don't even require a life form of any kind. It's just mineral rich water dripping from the ceiling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalagmite
Complexity does not require a designer. Get over it. Stars form without a miracle or mind, so do stalagmites, and icecicles, crystals, snowflakes. (Which the bible says are also created individually by god and stuck in storehouses, science has shown us how snowflakes form and it has nothing to do with storehouses, or miracles. Just like rainbows are formed by light refraction and not a contract from god.)
This has nothing to do with the topic. I just wanted to say, LtCmd.lore, I am impressed with your keen intellect and reasoning ability at such a young age. I predict you will go very far in life.

I've been noticing that too! LtCmd.lore is one smart little bastard!
Awww, thanks you guys, you made my day. I've never enjoyed being called a bastard so much....
nvrgnbk

Awww, thanks you guys, you made my day. I've never enjoyed being called a bastard so much....
Sorry dude! I meant it in the most affectionate way possible LtCmd.Lore.
Nvr
Vinny

TROUNCING cont...

****** Now, there is not ONE SINGLE CASE where I state Albert Einstein believed in a "PERSONAL" God, or in the BIBLE. What I stated (which IS TRUE) is that one of the most famous physicists known, believed that there was A GOD, A Designer of all the things we see today. He was clearly **NOT AN ATHEIST** as you folks are. And HE is the one that stated this fact directly.

And just WHAT IS an Atheist, which Einstein himself CLARIFIED, (in print) that he was NOT?

atheism |'a?e?iz?m| |?e??i'?z?m| |?e????z(?)m|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist.

Einstein DID NOT believe in Atheism. Atheism is the belief that God does NOT EXIST. Wake up Terry and smell the coffee. You seem to strike out quite a bit lately.

Your little, "Vinny is being dishonest", and "Einstein was just using metaphors" just got SQUASHED by EINSTEIN HIMSELF. Once again, this is why I love the world wide web folks. It's all in PRINT. What Terry said is there for all to read, and then what Einstein himself said makes Terry have those words for lunch . If Terry has big boot prints on his forehead, then we all know whose foot they came from.

I do agree with Almost Atheist that Einstein is just one man's opinion, and so what? He was wrong about other things throughout his life. Still, his "God does not play dice with the universe", sums up what I personally believe as well as many others today. It simply corroborated my own thoughts and comes from a very well-respected expert in that field of study.

Gumby DIES trying.
Vinny

Almost Atheist says:.. "I find it amazing that intelligent people can be on completely opposite sides of a spectrum and totally believe that the other side is ridiculously wrong. Vinny, you are obviously amused by the responses of the atheists that have posted. I can't speak for all atheists, but I am personally amused by yours. And yet we are quite probably of similar intelligence, and have reasonably similar life experiences. If you wanted proof of the complexity of the human mind, I think you have it right there."

I wish you well, my friend.

Take care, live well,

Dave

: )

vinny
Caedes

this Intelligent Designer, or God, NEVER EVEN HAD A BEGINNING, therefore there is NO CAUSE NEEDED in this one instance since there WAS NO BEGINNING. No special pleading involved as you wrongly accuse. Do you get it now? Agree with this or reject this, but there is no special pleading in THIS EXACT CIRCUMSTANCE JUST LISTED.

Now, I use two lines of reasoning to BACK THIS UP. This is not just (again as you wrongly claim) some, "it has to be this way cause vinny said so", or "This is what Vinny SAYS". Cause that would not fly two inches off the ground over here as you might imagine. But instead, I have two different tiers of reasoning for support of this belief.
Number one, I said before that the BIBLE teaches this very thing, which it does. Now fine, so you don't like or believe in the bible, fair enough then. But just so people know that I DO believe it is very possibly authored of God
Additionally, the second line of argument is that practically ALL physicists, astronomers, scientists etc. DO believe and DO teach that the universe DID HAVE A BEGINNING. TIME, it is also believed and taught, began when the universe began. We keep track of time today in terms of seconds, minutes, years decades, centuries, millenniums etc, all based on the earths rotation around the sun. Time, it is believed and taught does have a beginning.
If the Universe then, with all of its inconceivable power and precision, WAS Created by this Supreme, Intelligent Designer
It is positively painful having to point out your circular reasoning here,
You have stated that your special pleading is justified because god has no beginning and argue that this is based on the bible (which you believe is the word of god) and the fact that time has a beginning and therefore god doesn't because he created time.
So to sum up you believe in god and creationism because of god. Your justification for special pleading is another logical fallacy rather than actually going to the trouble of actually explaining WHY god is an exception. Saying that god created time and that the bible says so is begging the question.
How old are you Vinny? Because in this thread you seem to be very young, immature and incapable of debating in a rational adult manner. 'Trouncing' ? I haven't seen you trounce anyone!
DanTheMan

DanTheMan said:.."Your argument goes something like this: DESIGN requires a DESIGNER! NO EXCEPTIONS! Oh, except for God. Why this one exception? Umm...uh...because the Bible says so! Because it HAS to be that way! Because I say so! Your argument is a classic example of the logical fallacy known as "special pleading". If you insist that design always requires a designer, then your God requires a designer also, or else your argument is nonsense. Which it is.

**** Poor Danny. Now why go and say vinny said things that vinny never said? First of all I never said God needs no designer because, "it HAS to be that way, or "Because I said so". If you read the actual argument that is written above, ALL THE WAY THROUGH, then you will also see there is no special pleading going on here. Sorry to pop your bubble. But as you know, life is like this.
But the following argument is just that.
Special Pleading definition: noun "Argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view. This involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption".

**** Did you catch the part that says, "without justifying the exemption"? You see the universal principle (that atheists like yourself like to claim I am breaking) is the universally understood and tested "Every Beginning Has a Cause" fact of life PRINCIPLE. Now, Dannythe man likes to accuse Vinny of breaking this principle because he believes Vinny is now saying well every single thing that exists today must have a cause EXCEPT GOD. On the surface, I can see why you might THINK this is the case. But look more closely and accurately at what's being stated here.
ok...
Every *WHAT* must have a CAUSE, according to this principle, Dannyboy? Yes, that would be correct, every "BEGINNING" must have a cause. I have stated this over and over. I am not just casually saying, "well this applies to all circumstances EXCEPT this one of God, cause I said so". (Though this is what you and others accuse me of). What I have stated --if you read it all-- is that this Intelligent Designer, or God, NEVER EVEN HAD A BEGINNING, therefore there is NO CAUSE NEEDED in this one instance since there WAS NO BEGINNING. No special pleading involved as you wrongly accuse. Do you get it now? Agree with this or reject this, but there is no special pleading in THIS EXACT CIRCUMSTANCE JUST LISTED.
God doesn't need to have a cause because God has always existed. How do I know that God has always existed? Because I say so! Because it has to be that way! Because the Bible says so!
Now, I use two lines of reasoning to BACK THIS UP. This is not just (again as you wrongly claim) some, "it has to be this way cause vinny said so", or "This is what Vinny SAYS". Cause that would not fly two inches off the ground over here as you might imagine. But instead, I have two different tiers of reasoning for support of this belief.

Number one, I said before that the BIBLE teaches this very thing, which it does. Now fine, so you don't like or believe in the bible, fair enough then. But just so people know that I DO believe it is very possibly authored of God, I listed very specific reasons just WHY I believe this is very possible. I will save you atheists the pain of reading it again by not posting here now. But if you ask, I will be happy to. Those reasons are on page 3.
ok. Thank you for that concession.
Therefore when the bible tells us that God had no beginning at all, and that He is responsible for Creating what we see around us (the universe, the earth and all life upon the earth), I personally see very reasonable, logical LEGITIMATE reasons to believe that this is possible. This aspect has credibility to me and to many educated people today and yesterday.
Not to me though. And I'm glad per your comments to Terry that you are conceding that Einstein didn't really believe in the sky-dad concept of God that is typical of most religious folk.
Additionally, the second line of argument is that practically ALL physicists, astronomers, scientists etc. DO believe and DO teach that the universe DID HAVE A BEGINNING. TIME, it is also believed and taught, began when the universe began. We keep track of time today in terms of seconds, minutes, years decades, centuries, millenniums etc, all based on the earths rotation around the sun. Time, it is believed and taught does have a beginning.

If the Universe then, with all of its inconceivable power and precision, WAS Created by this Supreme, Intelligent Designer, as I believe, then HE would also be the Creator of TIME ITSELF. Being the CREATOR OF TIME, He would not be subject to TIME, and the dimensions/laws which come with time. The obvious dimension here being a BEGINNING.

So then, God needs no Designer Himself, simply because he had no beginning at all, which again is also what the bible teaches. He is the CREATOR of time itself, along with creating the universe, which is when time began, and is therefore OUTSIDE of time.

Because all of us personally live in the dimension of time, it may be difficult to impossible for us to fully understand anything that does not have a beginning or an end. The very concept of having "no beginning" is difficult for many, myself included at times to even grasp. I do believe this about the Creator as stated above, and can accept this as a reality, though can still struggle with the actual concept of no beginning itself. Why so? Because everything and everyone I know is subject to the dimension and effects of time. Everything and everyone I know has had a beginning. Each day, each child, pet, automobile, thought, movie, job, glass of wine, meal, workout, shower, joke, cold, poem, ball game, painting, song, book, idea, house, disease, vacation, flight, week etc etc etc has a beginning. This is what we are accustomed to, programmed to accept. So the one sole instance where there was no beginning; God himself, can challenge the mind in some ways. I believe I have come to terms with this now, in my own mind, though the concept of "no beginning" itself is still very unnatural due to living in the dimension of time.

Like it, don't like it. Believe it, don't believe it; whatever the case, there is no special pleading here. This makes sense and is a reasonable concept to myself and to many others. The Supreme Being would be the one and only exception. The bible only harmonizes with this belief.
'Everything that is designed needs a designer. Except God. Because God doesn't have a beginning. Why? Because God isn't subject to time. Because God created time.'
To resolve your special pleading conundrum, you just throw in an arbitrary declaration about god existing outside of time. This is just one more baseless "Because I say so" assertion.
This INTELLIGENT DESIGNER would be the reason why the universe is so precise and well arranged. This INTELLIGENT DESIGNER would be the reason why all life exists with its many outstanding features. This INTELLIGENT DESIGNER would be the reason why we humans have a conscience, appreciate scenery, plan ahead, and seek justice as well as love. This INTELLIGENT DESIGNER would be the answer to how all things came to exist.
To you maybe. To me, it is an answer that only leads to more questions. God did it! How? I don't know! Why? I don't know! Where did God get its intelligence? I don't know! Where did God come from? He's always been there. How do I know? I just know!

The Need To Question Atheism

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