The Need To Question Atheism

by The wanderer 142 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  The wanderer

  Hello Everyone:
  
  Thank you for the comments regarding this
  subject. However, this thread needs a
  fresh update.
  
  If someone could start a new thread regarding
  this subject MINUS mudslinging insults it
  would stand to be beneficial for all.
  
  Anyway, I will lend a listening ear to a
  conversation if it stays on course.
  
  Thank you once again for your contributions.
  
  Respectfully,
  
  The Wanderer
• 

  LtCmd.Lore

  Nobody ever dealt with the Red Vette. EVER. It is stuck to all atheists forhead. Let's imagine that you are completely alone in the middle of North Dakota somewhere, surrounded by nothing but mountainous wilderness, no people, no buildings, just you alone and the wilderness for hundreds of miles. And right there in the middle of it all you suddenly walk up to a brand new Red Chevrolet Corvette, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, a full tank of gas and one road taking you out. Now, it would in my opinion be nothing short of preposterous, actually INSANE to even entertain the mere possibility if someone were to try telling you that THAT brand new Red Corvette just happened to get there, on its own, without any intelligent designer behind it whatsoever.

  AlmostAtheist is right, we didn't deal with it because it doesn't apply. Not to evolution or abiogenesis. He covered Evolution, so now I'll do abiogenesis.

  I believe the initial, and one of the biggest problems with the corvette thing is that abiogenesis is the change from nonliving ORGANIC matter to living ORGANIC matter, but the corvette argument is the transistion from complex ORGANIC matter to a complex INORGANIC machine. So in that way... it's got nothing whatsoever to do with ANYTHING abiogenesis related.

  The second problem is that it is a single step, going from no machine parts at all, to a fully built car. But abiogenesis states that first the parts formed naturally, then by other natural means those parts came together, not by chance. (more information on that in a link)

  Another problem is that you chose a machine that requires a factory to build it... this is a problem because the factory to produce a corvette is more complex than the corvette itself. But in abiogenesis there is no factory, the environment it is in is all that's required, and because it's a biological process instead of a mechanical one, the parts can come together by themselves. And abiogenesis is the progression from the simple to more complex, not the other way around.

  You keep saying that it's so improbable... why? How improbable is it? You never justify your assumption that it's a single step leap from nonliving matter to something as complex as a car. We're not saying that a cell formed by chance, or bacteria, but something MUCH simpler, simpler than a car even.

  And THIS I think is the biggest problem:

  

  For more on this see the 'Tornado in a Junkyard' rebuttle: http://www.ebonmusings.org/evolution/tornado.html

  And for information on why abiogenesis is NOT random, and for information on why any statistics you've seen about the odds of life forming by chance is not valid, AND for some basic information on how life formed from non life see this article: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

  Furthermore, this thread is about ATHEISM not about the bible.

  But you're the one who brought the bible into the discussion, you used it as a proof of gods existance. We were simply rebutting that evidence.

  Thank you very much Odrade, I really appreciate it.

  Lore
• 

  LtCmd.Lore

  Hello Everyone:
  
  Thank you for the comments regarding this
  subject. However, this thread needs a
  fresh update.
  
  If someone could start a new thread regarding
  this subject MINUS mudslinging insults it
  would stand to be beneficial for all.
  
  Anyway, I will lend a listening ear to a
  conversation if it stays on course.
  
  Thank you once again for your contributions.
  
  Respectfully,
  
  The Wanderer

  I agree, this is getting stale. I'm sorry I didn't see this post five minutes earlier.

  We've been talking about everything: The authenticity of the bible, stalagmites, polymers, the golden rule, corvettes, spelling, star formation, Jesus, the ten plagues, my age, his age, icicles, snow etc.

  The fact is: Vinny thinks it's impossible for life to come from nonlife, and I don't. That's what it all boils down too.

  Interestingly abiogenesis isn't even neccesary for athiesm, and it wouldn't neccesarily nullify theism either. We've been talking as if it's the sole deciding factor of atheism vs theism and it's not. This discussion should be taken elsewhere.

  If somebody wants to start a new thread about it that's fine, I might show up if it looks like the amount of insults will be drastically reduced. But it would probably be best if we just agree to disagree on this.

  Lore
• 

  IP_SEC

  can I still insult cmd.lore on this thread?
• 

  LtCmd.Lore

  can I still insult cmd.lore on this thread?

  Sure, I can take it.
• 

  nvrgnbk

  can I still insult cmd.lore on this thread?

  Sure, I can take it.

  I love the little dude!

  I just can't take all this verbiage. Is it just me or are these extremely long-winded posts alienating? Can't the most powerful and meaningful points be expressed best in a concise and succint manner? These words are not directed at anyone in particular.

  Nvr
• 

  Anti-Christ

  This need to question atheism stems from the fact there are some individuals
  on this board that subscribe to such. The questions stated are not for some
  “firefight”, but rather, why individuals feel the way they do.

  Your Description Of What An Atheist Is And Is Not

  For the sake of clarity, I am not an individual that subscribes, supports or approves
  any religion. I am seeking your perspective on atheism and if there are any differing
  viewpoints or opinions about it.

  Respectfully,

  The Wanderer

  Sorry Wanderer we did turn this in a "firefight".

  Ok so to aswer your question I know that atheism is somebody who does not beleive in god. Wen I was jw beleiver I had many wrong assomptions about atheist. They are not angry or mad at god, they are reasonable ,they are nice normal people. I think it's not that they don't "whant" to beleive in god, so far what I see here is they don't see the logic in god and it's understandible. I'm not sure about god but I'm sure he is not the god of the bible, but if he is ( I could be wrong ) I rather go to hell then serve him.
• 

  LtCmd.Lore

  Hey vinny, I read the letter you linked too: http://p196.ezboard.com/Letter-of-disassociation/fexjehovahswitnessforumfrm14.showMessage?topicID=237.topic

  (Wow, you've been making huge posts for quite some time huh?)

  It was very good, you handled the blood issue wonderfully. But what happened to you over the course of a year? You were so polite and rational with the elders you wrote the letter too. Is it just because we've never met face to face that you feel free to insult me?
• 

  nvrgnbk

  Wen I was jw beleiver I had many wrong assomptions about atheist. They are not angry or mad at god, they are reasonable ,they are nice normal people. I think it's not that they don't "whant" to beleive in god, so far what I see here is they don't see the logic in god and it's understandible. I'm not sure about god but I'm sure he is not the god of the bible, but if he is ( I could be wrong ) I rather go to hell then serve him.

  Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Well spoken Anti-Christ. Now we're gettin' somewhere.

  LtCmd.Lore, you'll find that some people just become miserable and obnoxious in response to life and all of it's complexities. Don't make the mistake that many of us have, thinking that this response has something to do with you personally. It does not. Such persons pretty much treat everybody in the same disappointing fashion.

  nvr
• 

  Vinny

  Encore Return SPANKINGS for the Atheists.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Vinny's posts are too long is a BORING, USELESS EXCUSE.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  This is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there. You have completely failed in dealing with this. It applies. It fits. IT WORKS. If you believe in atheism, then you believe that red vette COULD happen all on its own. It is just too funny to watch some of you little atheists try to explain to me how the vette thing CAN'T HAPPEN. Well, I KNOW IT CAN'T HAPPEN. Hello out there. But this is exactly what atheists BELIEVE happened to the far more precise and complex features surrounding us today. It's like some kind of TWO-STEP you atheists like to do. It can't happen with the vette, it can't happen with the vette... but it DID happen with sun, moon, stars, earth, animals, people etc.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  You see folks, a perfectly spinning, tilted and orbiting earth did not EVOLVE, like you claim all OTHER LIFE on earth did. Neither did the atmosphere including ozone layer on earth, the water cycles, nor did the moon, sun and stars evolve as you state in your explanations above. Nor did many BILLIONS of other things similar. Your argument, like I said, is LOSE LOSE for atheists. Again, this is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  I suspect anyone who reads this thread will have respect for the "little" 17 y.o., who displayed so much class, whether they agree with him or not. Vinny, I suggest you do some reading on logical fallacies. Perhaps if you understand the concept, your "debating" might actually resemble a debate, where all participants are respected. I saw the other posters on this thread treating you with respect, but I saw zero respect in your replies to them. A shame really. There are many Christians and theists on this board who can participate in these discussions with reasonableness, respect, intelligence and class. Being the most insulting does not make you right, being the loudest does not make you right either. Being in the company of intelligent people does not necessarily guarantee you are either right or intelligent. It simply means you hold the same opinions. Remember the "moral majority?"
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  "As it stands, I have been ignoring your posts when they grow to such lengths. (My reason is that I find them to be inconsiderate when they are so long, so I won't help validate them by reading them."
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  "I'm quite impressed with the dignity you showed here (LTCMD.LORE) and your ability to express yourself logically, reasonably and without resorting to personal insults, even while you were repeatedly subjected to gross disrespect by Vinny."
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  "Vinny must WORSHIP a very ANGRY god...PERHAPS it's that JERK YHWH...LOL"
  
  
  
  
  
  "LOL, what a wicked thread....and vinny man, seriously! take the red pill dude. people are trying to help you and you are not letting them! damn, the lurkers are getting more from this exchange than you are!"
  
  
  
  
  
  "Yo vinny, I was considering believing in God again till I read your arguments. Now there's no way in hell."
  
  
  
  
  
  not sarcasm."
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  "using Einstein and his great intellectual achievements as a prop to formal religious representations of a personal God is just plain **dishonest**."
  
  
  
  
  
  "How old are you Vinny? Because in this thread you seem to be very young, immature and incapable of debating in a rational adult manner."
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  AAAAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAH
  
  
  And that was just when I started. I'd call that pretty lame debating folks. Sounds more like POLITICS to me.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Sorry Odrade, you deserved your SPANKING. You can go running back home to mamma again now and hide.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  1- Antichrist, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.
  
  2- Antichrist, how does it feel believing that red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own?
  
  3- Antichrist, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today?
  
  4- Antichrist, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?
  
  5- Antichrist, what does it say to you when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
  
  
  If you are not atheist Antichrist, then will you tell the other posters just WHY you are not atheist at this time. Though your replies sure SOUND like atheist. If you are atheist then please answer the questions. There is only five of them. Or perhaps another atheist can answer all five in order.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  It was very good, you handled the blood issue wonderfully.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=28082&discussionID=557309
  
  
  He never answered my questions and then just left altogether. MUCH LIKE THIS THREAD ACTUALLY. This is often the way it works with JW's willing to mix it up with EX-JW's too.
  
  
  I was not looking to leave WT-world at all last year. I was content as a man moving up with many responsibilities and oversight in the org. But the facts are the facts. It hit me like a ton of bricks the first few weeks. The consequences are hefty, as most all on this board know.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Gumby gets pulled apart if you are an atheist trying to explain how life and features arrived from nothing. My belief in,"Intelligent design", which the earth, and universe is abundantly filled with, very simply requires "intelligence", as well as "a designer". This is a simple and yet well accepted principle throughout all humankind wherever you go. When one sees evidence of intelligent design", one naturally assumes, rightfully so, that there is a designer. It can be a house; obviously that house was designed and built by SOMEBODY. It can be a thermometer, a computer a Red Corvette, a painting, deck of cards or anything else. None of these things just happened by themselves, did they? So then, if it is logical and reasonable to conclude that every thing constructed was constructed by somebody, then why would it not make sense to believe that the far more complicated universe, earth, human beings and animals that fill the earth too must have also been designed and created? Created by a higher intelligence than humans. In the simplest of terms then, my argument and belief that these things were created by an intelligent creator, sure sounds better and more plausible, logical, reasonable and convincing than believing they happened by themselves. That is what all of this really boils down to. This is one reason so FEW believe in atheism, it makes little sense from a logical standpoint. Did that Corvette happen by itself, or was it instead designed by Chevrolet? Did the far more complex universe then create itself, or does it not make sense that it was DESIGNED? It makes by far the most sense to believe it was created, was DESIGNED rather than happened by some chance or evolveD all on its own, whEN even the simplest of life forms have never been created from lifeless matter in the most controlled of settings.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  THERE IS JUST NO WAY THAT COULD HAPPEN.
  
  
  LIFE INSTEAD IS THE RESULT OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  (Wow, you've been making huge posts for quite some time huh?)
  
  It was very good, you handled the blood issue wonderfully. But what happened to you over the course of a year?