by The wanderer 142 Replies latest jw friends
Vinny:
What do you mean God exists outside of time?
Does this mean that he can't come into our world?
How can God decide to enter our world of time?
If he does choose to enter our world then the act of choosing to do that in his world is an act in time.
If it is impossible for God to enter a world of time then he can never exist in our world.
Again there are too many paradoxes for this to be taken seriously as a coherent idea.
Vinny, the concept that god exists outside of time, is not even in the Bible. So even if I did accept the Bible as completely truthful, the whole time thing is simply your opinion.
Show me where it says anything along the lines of: "In the beggining god created time, then the heavens and the earth." In fact the Bible says that 1000 years is as one day to God, so therefore he does exist within time, and it goes by faster for him.
It's just a silly fake arguement to try to get past the first cause issue. One that can't be tested, proven, or even comprehended... Unfalsifiabilty: You theists seem to like that. But it's very unconvincing, and also based soley on your own opinion. Sorry man, you don't even have the Bible to back you up on this one. And therefore, it most definately IS special pleading. (And even if the Bible did say that, then it would simply mean that the Bible was guilty of special pleading instead of you.)
More TROUNCING of the little atheists.
You: "I regect that the corvette could have formed by chance, it must have been designed."
Me: "OK if you say so, it didn't form by chance at all, but it wasn't designed either. It just simply always existed, it didn't have a beggining, therefore I'm exempt from having to explain it. Hah, I win, I'll go gloat now because your so ignorant."
****BWAAAHAAHAHAAAHAAHAHA
AAAAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAH
YOU'RE KILLING ME HERE, O' YOUNG 17 yR. OLD ONE."
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just MADE UP these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found SOMETHING powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the FOREMOST of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers COULD HAVE just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many PROPHECIES written that had exact fulfillments adds even more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is "ROUND", and that it "HANGS UPON NOTHING", though men at that time believed the earth was FLAT, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than MERE MEN. Are all of these just mere COINCIDENCES? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not just a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment. This is very compelling to myself and to billions today.
There is SECULAR testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist AT ALL, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly NOT exaggerated at all. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of MIRACLES where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time right now. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it POSSIBLE then, that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. And If so, if it IS from God Himself, this Supreme Grand Designer, then the very question as to how life arrived is ANSWERED. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these very things that we see today. No SOUP-LIKE conditions that somehow, some way evolved into the beautiful yet complex and purposeful systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened as well in the future. It talks about Everlasting Life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his or her life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and PERMANENTLY. That is a beautiful hope to me. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable.
You see LTMD.CORE, to you it is an old book, and I can respect that. But to myself and many, many others, it is much, much more than this. There are genuine answers and a real positive hope for those that do believe what it contains.
Yet even WITHOUT THE BIBLE, the idea that all of these amazingly complex features simply came to exist on their very own, without any help from a higher Intellect is just not acceptable, believable or even POSSIBLE to me. Every design has a designer. Universally proven as fact. Yet somehow you want to throw that out the window because you don't believe in God and you are adamant that such a God just could not exist. At least agnostics open the door for the possibility and even believe it is probable. You say NO WAY. That EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING that we see out there today arose either from some self-replicating polymer, which arose from DEAD MATTER, from sosme PRIMORDIAL SOUP-like quagmire, all on it's own, without any guiding force WHATSOEVER. That the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time. And that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond.
Complexity does not require a designer. Get over it. Stars form without a miracle or mind, so do stalagmites, and icecicles, crystals, snowflakes. (Which the bible says are also created individually by god and stuck in storehouses, science has shown us how snowflakes form and it has nothing to do with storehouses, or miracles. Just like rainbows are formed by light refraction and not a contract from god.)
"a mound or tapering column rising from the floor of a cave, formed of calcium salts deposited by dripping water and often uniting with a stalactite."
I also read your link. Here let me post it for others to read:
A stalagmite (from the Greek stalagma ("Sta?a?ยต?t??"), "drop" or "drip") is a type of speleothem that rises from the floor of a limestone cave due to the dripping of mineralized solutions and the deposition of calcium carbonate. The corresponding formation on the ceiling of a cave is known as a stalactite. If these formations grow together, meeting in the middle, the result is known as a column.
>>"Intelligent Designer", that created the earth with FEATURES that allow these things to be formed. He also created the weather systems
This would be the same set of weather systems that create tornados and hurricanes? And the same features that produce earthquakes and tsunami?
You'd think a guy designing a paradise would have left out such devastating features, wouldn't you? When we intelligently design a terrarium, for instance, we don't set it up to shake violently every now and again, or deluge itself with water. The earth is an acceptable place to live, but it doesn't scream "intelligent design" to me.
You lack the gene to produce vitamin C. All humans do. Worse, we don't "lack" it, it's just broken. Chimps suffer from the same genetic malformity. But not dogs. Why would an intelligent designer design us with a broken vitamin-C gene, but design a dog with a functional one? Again, I see "design", but not "intelligent design". I see emergent design, layer upon layer, with the odd-but-livable mistake made.
Dave of the "I thought I bowed out of this conversation?" class
Vinny:
You have a very bad habit of being your own cheering section. Please quit wasting time cheering your "imagined" victories and concentrate on the subject. It really is in bad taste and at the same time suggest you don't have honest intentions in this dialog.
NOW THEN:
The main reason atheists engage in these discussions is to find possible holes in their own arguments and also to develop better tools at quickly breaking through the resistance of believers.
So far you haven't presented anything new. Intelligent design arguments have actually been ruled on in courts of law. They don't contribute to the advancement of science and that's why they are being resisted by educators.
Your intelligent design argument is the same as Paley's. It is an old argument. And it has been successfully refuted since it was first made.
If anyone wants to seriously consider this subject - the experts have debated it to death - without the annoying self-cheering and trash talking which you would expect at an athletic event.
Beware common sense. People still talk about the sun setting when as you know it really is revolved out of sight.
There is SECULAR testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events.
Christ existed, maybe but secular testimony of miraculous events? Can you prove that?
Well that old book The bible, in my opinion, is a reliable source of information even now, today in 2007. It CLAIMS to be authored by God. There is an abundance of evidence that it COULD be authored by God. Here is a very short list of reasons why I believe the bible is from God and thus a reliable, trustworthy source of information today, which I have benefitted from too many times mention:
There are more evidence to prove that it could not be.
The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life
NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)
NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.
DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.
EX 21:7-11 A father can sell a daughter into slavery to pay a debt. A daughter sold into slavery is not released at the end of six years as is an ordinary male slave.
EX 21:20-21 A slave owner is to be punished if he strikes his slave and the slave dies shortly thereafter. If the slave lives a day or to and then dies, the slave owner is not to be punished. A slave is the same as money to his owner.
Now I find it weird wen people who believe the bible is from a LOVING god ignore these verses. How are these laws so valuble?
The bible's statement that the earth is "ROUND", and that it "HANGS UPON NOTHING", though men at that time believed the earth was FLAT, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than MERE MEN.
Round does not mean sphere. Wen you look at the sun and the moon you see that they are round. Not all people in that time believed the earth was flat. You should do more reseach on history and ancient belief.
I'm back.
Dannyboys reply to vinny:..."Thank you for that concession."
But let's discuss just WHY God may allow these situations to exist for a moment anyway. While it is true that nobody enjoys suffering, pain and the like, it is also true that these conditions can help develop desirable qualities in the individuals that experience them. In fact the scriptures says that Jesus LEARNED OBEDIENCE and other desirable qualities through his difficult times and sufferings while on the earth. *If* God is the Creator of all things, and if he allowed his only begotten SON to take the beatings and persecution that he did, then obviously SOME GOOD can also be the result by allowing these less than desirable situations to exist today as well.
In support of this, James Chapter 1:2-4 tells the reader, "to consider it all joy when you meet with various trials, knowing that this tested quality of your faith works out endurance. But let endurance have its work complete, that YOU may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything." So once again we can see some value in God's eyes by allowing trialsome conditions and situations to exist. Just because we humans may not fully understand exactly WHY God has allowed certain things to take place, does not mean that he does not exist at all. This may be some kind of opportunity for humans to gain an inner strength, perhaps a greater appreciation for when life is better, free from all these problems plaguing mankind. When I had a very serious staph infection earlier last summer, I was very scared and worried for a few days. However, When I knew I made it out of the woods, safely, I was really happy to be alive. My appreciation had ACTUALLY GROWN through that experience. The existence OF these problems however, does not just automatically discount or deny God's VERY existence. At least not in my mind. HE has simply decided to allow these conditions to exist at this time, for reasons, that are not crystal clear to humans. And again, he has promised to permanently remove these negative features that affect life today.
Life would have hope. Eternal life under wonderful conditions is at least possible.
He asks that we search for Him, walk with Him and help others come to know about Him.
In return, everlasting life with no pain, no suffering or even death.
That sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
I will reply to the two the last two soon. Time for that swim...
All the best,
Vinny
Holy verbosity Batman!
Re: Vinny. Anybody ever heard that referring to oneself in the third-person is an indicator of delusions of grandeur?
In other words, is Vinny delusional?
Every *WHAT* must have a CAUSE, according to this principle, Dannyboy? Yes, that would be correct, every "BEGINNING" must have a cause. I have stated this over and over. I am not just casually saying, "well this applies to all circumstances EXCEPT this one of God, cause I said so". (Though this is what you and others accuse me of). What I have stated --if you read it all-- is that this Intelligent Designer, or God, NEVER EVEN HAD A BEGINNING, therefore there is NO CAUSE NEEDED in this one instance since there WAS NO BEGINNING. No special pleading involved as you wrongly accuse. Do you get it now? Agree with this or reject this, but there is no special pleading in THIS EXACT CIRCUMSTANCE JUST LISTED.
Over and over, indeed! Same baseless assertions, same special pleading, over and over! Just insisting that it's not special pleading doesn't make it so, bro!
"Everything except God had a beginning, and therefore required prior causes. How do I know that God exists and is not subject to time the way we understand it and had no beginning and therefore required no prior cause? Because I say so!"
