I am sorry to hear that the elders and mil are disrupting your fade. The same thing happened to me. I feel for you and hope that you and your wife are able to come out unscathed. Good Luck.
Update: Elders on the move....
by drew sagan 43 Replies latest jw friends
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nvrgnbk
Especially as you say she is weak.
For some reason, it seems like it's always the "weak" ones that go on these ridiculous rampages. It's as if they see an "opportunity" to make it up to Jehovah for all their years of "slackin' off."
My family(parents and siblings) is not weak and they have yet to turn my apostate ass in. Go figure.
Nvr
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moshe
Just tell your M-inlaw you joined the Y just to use it's library facilities ( there must have some books in the basement), heh , heh- just like the UN/WT fiasco.
Seriously, maybe you could tell them you are just an associate/secular member- is it any worse than JW's using the blood of worldly people, but not donating any to help others?-
Anyway, tell them they need to write to Crooklyn WT Hdqtrs for a clarification considering how things change all the time and "new light" is constantly flashing up to the GB- all it takes is one person to switch his vote to achieve a 2/3 majority to make new policy. Ask them how they would view the situation, if they knew that 50% of the GB saw no problem with joining the Y in order to use it's facilities for summer programs- seeing as how JW's don't have any Charities for this purpose.
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Tuesday
I would just say that you guys can't afford a normal gym membership because of the costs of signing up (it can be up to $600 a piece), say that you didn't think there would be anything wrong with it because there are many christian orginizations that JW's work with (Red Cross would be an example) and you felt this would be no different. If they tell you that you have to stop going to the YMCA just tell them that your doctor told you that you need to start a regimen of exercise. Since it would effect your health you'd have to be a member of a gym. You can ask them to find a gym that's cheaper than the YMCA, if they find one great you have a cheaper gym. If they don't find you a cheaper gym (which is probably impossible) then they don't have anyone to blame but themselves right?
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Gregor
I don't believe the Y membership is a DF ing offense. However, things said by your wife during a meet with the elders could lead to trouble. She should really have a meek attitude if she wants to avoid the big DF. MiL is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. Best wishes. I wouldn't want to trade places with you in this situation, I am way too outspoken and not good at political finessing when dealing with JW clones.
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Highlander
Hey Drew,
I think you are going at this with the correct attitude. Religion isn't about logic, it's all about emotion.(For most people) So I fully agree with your strategy.
I hope that you can continue the fade so that you can maintain contact with the family. It's better that you and your wife are in their lives as a positive influence, that
may allow you to help them when the time is right.
I wish you the best.
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journey-on
I guarantee your mil sees Jehovah looking down upon her with a scorecard in his big hand. If she can just prove her faithfulness to him by cutting her daughter out of her life, she will earn BIG POINTS.
I feel so sorry for the position this cult puts mothers in when it comes to this sort of thing. I know personally at least one mother that suffered severe mental problems eventually over what she thought she had to do to serve Jehovah and keep his organization clean. At first, she will feel so spiritually strong but over time, it will eat away at her heart and mind because deep down inside she will come to know the pain and suffering she inflicted was not God-directed but man-directed. When she realizes it is too late, it will take its toll on her mentally. It will have already taken its toll on those she hurt.
Tell her to pray about it. Say: Don't pray that you have the strength to obey the FDS. Pray to your father to help you know in your heart what He wants you to do. God is Love and Love would never expect a mother to do that to her own flesh and blood.
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AK - Jeff
I don't believe the Y membership is a DF ing offense.
Technically correct, Gregor. Sometimes they consider one who did so, Disassociated, not Disfellowshipped. Nowadays, they would just read an announcement that the person is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Three different ways of saying the same thing. If they can 'prove it' they won't even need to DF, she has done so by WTS rules when she joined. But they may choose to have a JC, as the official stance allows the charge of apostacy. Sad but true.
QuestionsFromReaders 1-1-1979
Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA(YoungMen’sChristianAssociation)? Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.
In September 1885 the WatchTower took this position:
"Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by allthepopularcreeds."—P. 6.
Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of KingdomMinistry, used by Jehovah’s Witnesses in one of their meetings.
Many persons think of the "Y" simply as a social organization that offers various services, such as a swimming pool, facilities for athletic training and a place for clubs to meet. Commendable as some of these provisions may be, it is important to bear in mind that the YMCA was founded with a distinctly religious basis. This was set out at a World Alliance in Paris in 1855. The main part of that official statement (called the Paris Basis) reads:
"The Young Men’s Christian Associations seek to unite those young men, who, regardingJesusChristastheirGodandSaviour, according to the Holy Scriptures, desire to be His disciples in their faith and in their life, and to associate their efforts for the extension of His Kingdom amongst young men." (Italics added)
While in some countries churches may not be the YMCA’s main source of revenue and while membership is open to persons of all races, nationalities and religions, the fundamental religious objectives of the "Y" cannot be ignored.
‘But,’ some may sincerely wonder, ‘is religion or interfaith really an aspect of the YMCA?’ The answer must be "Yes." Though religious features may be de-emphasized in some branches of the YMCA, all local "Ys" are still expected to comply with the Paris Basis. Further, note comments from the 1975 YMCA publication ChristianandOpen:
Anza A. Lema, associate of the executive committee of the World Alliance of YMCAs, wrote:
"From its very foundation, it has always looked to the Bible for inspiration and guidance. In many ways its role in the world has tended to complement that of the church without claiming to be a congregation itself. . . .
"But it is more than just an instrument through which Christians put their moral ideals and teachings into practice as they serve society. Most supporters of the YMCA look at it as a place where real fellowship with one another through Jesus Christ is experienced. . . .
"In humbling itself and trying to relate its structures and services more directly to the community, it will be carrying out more effectively its role of service and priesthood for its neighbours. . . . "
Matthias Dannenmann, general secretary, National Council of YMCAs of Germany, said:
"From its very beginning the YMCA was no doubt meant to have only Christians as members and on the other hand there was the missionary obligation towards those members who could not yet profess Jesus Christ. . . .
"The YMCA is a big offer, but only in as far as Jesus Christ is working in it as Living Saviour. We should do our very best not to drive out this Lord but as we carry him in our name we should personally use every chance of meeting him in the YMCA and of continuously extending this possibility to other people."
Officials of the organization have pointed out that they feel that more attention needs to be given to the religious orientation of the YMCA. Dr. Paul M. Limbert, from 1952-1962 secretary-general of the YMCA’s World Alliance in Geneva, Switzerland, wrote:
"It may readily be granted that too few Y.M.C.A.s take full advantage of the opportunity for ecumenical education inherent in these informal contacts among Christians . . .
"When questions about different forms and beliefs arise among young people and adults, the wise leader takes advantage of the occasion to guide discussion from superficial argument to deeper dialogue. . . .
Leaders in both churches and Y.M.C.A.s need to recognize more clearly the essential nature of a lay ecumenical Christian movement. A Young Men’s Christian Association is not a church nor a substitute for a church. . . . Yet the Faith and Order commission of the British Council of Churches declared in a carefully worded statement in 1959 that the Christian Associations are ‘valuable auxiliaries’ of the churches, organs of their own missionary activity."—TheChristianCentury, June 10, 1964.
And TheChristianCentury of August 29, 1969, in its article "Happy Birthday, Y.M.C.A.!", stated:
"Realizing that the Christian identity of the ‘Y’ has often been drowned in swimming pools, its leaders are engaged in recovery of theological awareness and ecumenical vigor. . . . It may be that the greatest challenge to the Y.M.C.A. is to reclaim its religious heritage for the robust assertion of a new ecumenism among laymen in local communities. The Y.M.C.A. just might be able to do things for the Christian churches which, in their parochial rigidities, they seem unable to do for themselves."
Consequently, there is ample evidence that the YMCA originated with religious objectives and continues to have such to this day.
In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy.
Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a onetime admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others.—1 Cor. 8:11-13.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, of course, appreciate a balanced amount of healthful exercise. The Bible says that "bodily training is beneficial for a little." Yet it adds that "godly devotion is beneficial for all things." (1 Tim. 4:8) That does not mean devotion to a triune God. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is "God" in a trinity, as is taught in many of Christendom’s churches and as is still included in the "Paris Basis" of the YMCA.—1 Cor. 11:3; John 17:3.
While interfaith efforts and ecumenism are popular today, they are not upheld by the true God, who told his servants: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves.’" (2 Cor. 6:14-17) Also, Jesus plainly said that the Almighty must be worshiped "with spirit and truth." (John 4:24) Most definitely that does not mean joining in a religious cause with persons holding beliefs contrary to what the Scriptures teach. (Rev. 18:4, 5) Thus, it is because of their understanding of what God expects of true worshipers, and of what the purposes and direction of the YMCA are, that Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of that organization.
Further, it is well to give thought to the fact that in virtually all the years of the YMCA’s existence, it has not acted in harmony with the spirit of Isaiah 2:2-4, as can be noted from the following historical facts:
"YMCA services to the armed forces began, in the United States, with the Civil War, and it continued giving service through all wars thereafter."—EncyclopædiaBritannica, Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 835, 1976 ed.
"In the Civil War, only ten years after its beginning in Boston, and before there were buildings or secretaries or financial resources, a total of 4,859 ‘delegates’ were recruited and deployed and over six millions of donated funds used for the temporal and spiritual needs of soldiers. . . . In World War I, the American Y.M.C.A. assumed an enormous responsibility for service at home and abroad for which a staff of 25,926 was required with expenditures of more than 167 million dollars. In World War II, the Y.M.C.A. became one of the organizations that founded the United Service Organizations [USO], joining as a group of private religious organizations from Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish faiths in an agreement with the Federal government to provide civilian recreational, welfare, and religious services to men in uniform and to war-production workers in communities adjacent to military establishments."—TheNewFunk&WagnallsEncyclopedia, Vol. 36, pp. 13,467, 13,468, 1952 ed.
"YMCA activities for members of the armed forces began during the Civil War (1861-1865). These services increased with each later war and reached their fullest development during World War II (1939-1945). The YMCA maintained more than 450 clubs for the Allied armed forces."—TheWorldBookEncyclopedia, Vol. 21, p. 477, 1978 ed.
This kind of service under the name "Christian" was certainly not in fulfillment of Micah 4:3.
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drew sagan
Thank you all for your comments.
For some reason I too see the UN thing as having an effect. I'll have it in my stash of papers 'just in case'. The U.N. scandal never meant that much to me personally, but I have see that many have been effected by it and I shouldn't doubt it's potential.
I plan on stalling with the Elders as long as possible. I know what they want and the plan is to make it hard as hell for them to get it. -
Amazing
Drew,
Consider the option to play innocent ... and reset the fade clock. Here is what I mean: Don't meet with the Elders at the Hall, as it is their turf and they will be in their power mode. Invite them to come over for a shepherding visit. This way you get only two Elders and not a JC. This action changes the mood and forces them into a reconciliation mind-set. Offer them coffee and tea and let them bring up any "concerns." When they mention the YMCA, act surprised and declare that you were not sure that it was a problem, and that being away from the meetings must have made your thinking and your wife's thinking a little fuzzy on the matter. Before they come over, have your wife briefly resign from the YMCA. So when you and she are asked, your wife can tell them that she joined for some exercise classes, but then she realized that she does not have time for it after all. So, she already resigned. You take away their argument. They will of course counsel you and invite you back to meetings and ask that one of them study with you. Express repentance and assure them that you appreciate their shepherding visit and that you will be more careful about what organization you join in the future. Agree to return to the meetings but tell them that you will consider the study option. Go to the Sunday meetings for a time, and this will reset your fade clock.
Otherwise, you know that it is over. Talking to your relatives is, at best, simply going to confirm for them that you are for sure leaving the organization. This is a good step if you plan to end it. And in that case, there is no reason to talk to the Elders - ever.
Jim Whitney