The Watchtower and Creation

by AlanF 91 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The problem with the scriptures in Exodus is that they lump the creation of the earth and heavens INTO the creative days.

    Which Genesis 1 does as well:

    v. 1: "In the beginning God created the SHAMAYIM and the ARETS".

    v. 7-8: "So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault SHAMAYIM.

    v. 9-10: "And God said, 'Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.' And it was so. God called the dry ground ARETS and the gathered waters he called YAMMIM.

    And if anyone wants to argue that the days are lengthy periods of time, one must explain how these time periods included alternating epochs of light and darkness with mornings and evenings. That indicates better than anything else what kind of "day" the author had in mind here (tho one could also mention how the seventh day was identified as the "sabbath").

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Alan...As Narkissos mentioned, the modern concept of creation ex nihilo was foreign to the Hebrew mind and the OT shows that the creation was conceived of as an ordering and fashioning of primeval chaos -- the same concept of creation found in the Enuma Elish and other ANE texts. I read Genesis 1:2 as a description of the cosmos BEFORE creation (which is nicely paralleled in the Phoenician creation myth). There was no heaven, there was no earth, all there was in the beginning was the watery deep, darkness, and God's rwch over the waters. God's first creative act put limits on the pre-existent darkness (banishing it to the temporal abode of "night") and his second and third acts put limits on the watery deep, creating "heaven" and "earth" as byproducts. So it wasn't the case that there was an already-created "earth" in v. 2. Rather, the earth was a nothing, it was uncreated chaos (thw), it was in a state of oblivion. God had yet to make it as a place, as dry ground that wasn't covered by the watery deep. In Job 26:7 we have a description of heaven (i.e. God's habitation, see Isaiah 14:13) being stretched and earth being poised over thw / nothingness (granted, blymh is a hapax legomenon). Interestingly, we have in Genesis 1 a description of the heavenly vault being raised over the watery deep followed by the earth being produced by a removal of waters. What is also really interesting about Job 26:7 is that it directly follows two verses about Sheol: "The Rephaim [ghosts of the dead] writhe beneath the waters, with their denizens, Sheol is naked before him, and Abaddon has no covering" (v. 5-6). This implies that the "nothing" that heaven and earth are placed over is Sheol which is either "beneath the waters" (i.e. the watery deep) or "the waters beneath" (as the verse could also be read). In other words, the watery deep is the thw that heaven and earth are above and Sheol is below, or it otherwise is the same place as Sheol. Sheol is watery just like the primeval deep (see also Jonah 2:3-6) and it is also dark like the darkness on the primeval deep (Job 17:13). There are other texts that liken Sheol to mire or mud (Psalm 40:2, 69:1, 14-15, 140:10), which recalls the mixed, muddy state of the deep in the Phoenician creation myth (which refers to Mot, the god of the underworld, as signifying "mud" or a "watery putrefaction") and the muddy habitation of Mot in Ugaritic myth (KTU 1.5 i 6-8, ii 13-16). The deep in Genesis 1 seems to be a combination of what would become both land, seas, and the heavenly waters (prior to God's subdivision of the deep into these entities). You may have also noticed that the creation of Sheol is nowhere mentioned in the OT. This is probably because Sheol, the realm of the dead, is itself uncreated. Those who pass into obvilion go to the place of oblivion. They leave the created world and go to a sort of no place.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    >>and Abaddon has no covering"

    The prophecy has been fulfilled!

    (C'mon, SOMEBODY had to post this...)

    Dave

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    ROTFL @ Dave...

    Good points Leolaia, the immediate context indeed secures the general "chaos/underworld" sense of tohu and beli-mah (or whatever the latter replaces in the MT). Another detail is that the "North" (tsaphôn) may be more than a mere geographical indication and point to the sacred mountain which is directly connected to the underworld (cf. your earlier thread on this very topic)

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    Excellent topic Alan. It clearly shows that Jehovah's Witnesses only believe in the Bible as mediated through the pages of the Watchtower. Since Elohim ceased work on the seventh day, and the preceding six days were what we would call 24 hour days, then Elohim has not been resting for six thousand years as Watchtower chronology would have us believe.

    However, a Witness would then ask why Jesus spoke of his Father as continuing to work as quoted here:

    (John 5:15-18) 15 The man went away and told the Jews it was Jesus that made him sound in health. 16 So on this account the Jews went persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things during Sabbath. 17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” 18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

    My apologies for using the NWT, but it is what a JW would use to try to prove a point. The implication is that God has been in a period of Sabbath rest since the end of Creation, but He continues to work for the good of mankind. How would you respond?

    Dave

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    And if anyone wants to argue that the days are lengthy periods of time, one must explain how these time periods included alternating epochs of light and darkness with mornings and evenings. That indicates better than anything else what kind of "day" the author had in mind here (tho one could also mention how the seventh day was identified as the "sabbath").

    Leolaia,

    Simple. Mornings and evenings were used as expressions depicting the beginning and the end of the epoch in question called day. Ge 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Here evening and morning are distinct from day and night and not combined with it as you did in your argument. The words simply bracket the entire event. Many times on this board words with multiple applications have been identified as this is common use for them. Blanket statements that this cannot be so do not nullify such facts. Other texts using the same word differently do not alter this reality. Many examples where the word day embraces events exceeding 24 hours are simply ignored, something a simple look up will reveal. The day of rest that makes up the seventh day has continued from such time of creation and is still continuing. Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Heb 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:" While some here deny that days can represent epochs exceeding literal 24 hour days, the scriptures do not and support such use. And no one here knows how long each day or epoch was, if they were of equal length or not or when such a senventh day will end. All we have is speculation not proof.

    Joseph

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    PrimateDave said:

    : The implication is that God has been in a period of Sabbath rest since the end of Creation, but He continues to work for the good of mankind. How would you respond?

    I would respond that the seventh creative day ended just as Genesis says the preceding six days ended, even though it does not explicitly say so.

    Genesis 2:3 says that God blessed the seventh day and made it sacred. Genesis 3:17 says that God cursed the ground on Adam's account. It's not likely that God would curse the ground on the very same day that he had already blessed and made sacred. Thus, any reference to "God's rest day" in places like Hebrews 4:3 must refer to some other kind of rest.

    AlanF

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The argument in John 5 makes perfect sense from the perspective that God has been working every sabbath since creation (a classic issue in later rabbinical Judaism) -- it doesn't require one continuing, figurative Sabbath.

    The text of Hebrews must be read from the general allegorical perspective of the book, where, in typical (!) Alexandrine middle-Platonic manner, the earthly / historical "things" (like the temple) and "characters" (like Melchizedek) are taken as "shadows" of a heavenly and timeless reality. The sabbath day in Genesis 2 is treated exactly the same way, as the temporal figure of "the true Rest" which is timeless, not X,000 years long.

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    "God has been working every sabbath since creation (a classic issue in later rabbinical Judaism) -- it doesn't require one continuing, figurative Sabbath." - Narkissos

    Yes! Perfect! Naturally, this is all just an intellectual curiosity for me, but it is nice to have a comeback just in case.

    Amazing how an old Babylonian myth can get so many people all excited, isn't it?

    Dave

  • TopHat
    TopHat

    Genesis 2:3 says that God blessed the seventh day and made it sacred. Genesis 3:17 says that God cursed the ground on Adam's account. It's not likely that God would curse the ground on the very same day that he had already blessed and made sacred. Thus, any reference to "God's rest day" in places like Hebrews 4:3 must refer to some other kind of rest.

    AlanF

    It is my understanding that God ceased creating on the 7th day....cursing the ground on Adam's account, is not in line with creating anything new....

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