The Trinity ( arguement to end all arguments I hope )

by 5go 56 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Leolaia gave the crux of the matter, the trinity doctrine arose in order to explain the discrepancy between having to be monotheistic and believing in the Father as God but also in the son as God which would make it appear that Christians believed in two Gods, a very obscene situation for a religion with a monotheistic legacy. It was a case of cognitive dissonance so they had to develop a way to overcome it and so entered the doctrine of Trinity.

    Which however creates more problems than it solves and all the more so because all Pauline and most other apostolic statements on the issue unambiguously consider Jesus to be subordinate to the Father.

    Most likely Jesus is a god next to the Father and in total harmony with Him but only the Father is a God in the absolute sense. Jesus himself believes that God the Father is his God rather than his equal as Trinitarians maintain, even though He created all things for him and through him and gave him all authority in heaven and on earth.

  • TheCoolerKing
    TheCoolerKing

    Funny, I just had a conversation with two witnesses last week regarding the Trinity. First, I just want to mention that I am not offering any proof for the trinity or against it. But years ago when working in Field Service, I remember that someone gave me the simplest answer to how the trinity is possible.
    Ok, we have a man named John Doe. John is ONE person. But he is also a SON to his parents, a FATHER to his children and a HUSBAND to his wife. All three distinctly different descriptions. John may talk one way to his parents, another way to his children and another way to his wife. This could almost be described as THREE separate personalities. But John is still just ONE person. I always remembered that conversation because I thought that this would be the best way to try to explain it to another that doesnt believe the 3 in 1 theory.

    And as far as God holding on a conversation with himself, maybe I’m the only one who will admit it, but I know I’ve talked to myself at least more than once in my life!

  • bob1999
    bob1999

    John 5:22-23

    The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.

    How can the Son be honored like God, unless He is God? The type of honor due God is not due anyone else. Do JWs honor Jesus like they honor Jehovah? No, they do not follow the bible, the words of Jesus in John 5.

  • theMadChristian
    theMadChristian

    CoolerKing:Funny, I just had a conversation with two witnesses last week regarding the Trinity. First, I just want to mention that I am not offering any proof for the trinity or against it. But years ago when working in Field Service, I remember that someone gave me the simplest answer to how the trinity is possible.
    Ok, we have a man named John Doe. John is ONE person. But he is also a SON to his parents, a FATHER to his children and a HUSBAND to his wife. All three distinctly different descriptions. John may talk one way to his parents, another way to his children and another way to his wife. This could almost be described as THREE separate personalities. But John is still just ONE person. I always remembered that conversation because I thought that this would be the best way to try to explain it to another that doesnt believe the 3 in 1 theory.

    And as far as God holding on a conversation with himself, maybe I’m the only one who will admit it, but I know I’ve talked to myself at least more than once in my life!

  • TheCoolerKing
    TheCoolerKing
    Did you like the EGG illustration: Egg White, Egg Yoke, Egg Shell- three parts making the Whole? SO MANY creative attempts to try and vailidify a Fairy Tale. And that doesn't even cover the "Holy Spook/Ghos"t part of the Tale- that is PURE Catholic- completely alien to God's Word, Cooler King! Agape!

    Hi Mad...oh yes, the egg illustration was my favorite, till I heard the one about John Doe!

    Laugh a little, life's too short...

    Agape Brother Mad!

  • JeffT
    JeffT
    I pretty much don't think much of Christendom.

    Then the correct resolution to your problem with the Trinity is to stop thinking about it.

    If you want to have an intelligent discussion about something you obviously don't understand, find out about it first. Lot's of sophisticated subjects don't lend themselves to easily digested sound bites. Can you explain quantum physics in 25 words or less? Should we stop believing it just because nobody can?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Last week I mentioned Freudian psychodynamics as an interesting (partial) parallel to the kind of three-in-one relationship assumed by the trinity; the mind is composed of three distinct but non-separate drives (Id, Ego, Superego) that interface the individual with the external world (with its cultural mores, authority figures, objects of desire, etc.), but which make up one single psyche.

  • 5go
    5go

    Um an egg isn't alive and making judgements of humanity. Besides humans are made up of many parts but only the brain commands them.

    The trinity begs a question in my opinion what if adam hadn't sinned would there be a trinity.

    There wouldn't be a need for the whole Jesus thing at all.

    And another question if the holy ghost is refered to in most of the bible as the power of god how does it end up being self aware at the end. Seemingly able to make desisions for it's self but still part of god.

  • 5go
    5go
    (Id, Ego, Superego)

    I wouldn't bring that up again by the way. As proof for the trinity.

    The id

    The term id is a latinized derivation from Groddeck's das Es. [1] . It stands in direct opposition to the super-ego. It is dominated by the pleasure principle.

    The newborn child is regarded as being completely 'Id-ridden', in the sense that it is a mass of instinctive drives and impulses, and demands immediate satisfaction. This view equates a new born child with an id-ridden individual - often humorously - with this analogy : an alimentary tract with no sense of responsibility at either end!

    The id is responsible for our basic drives such as food, sex and aggressive impulses, and demands immediate satisfaction. It is amoral and egocentric' ruled by the pleasure-pain principle; it is without a sense of time; completely illogical; primarily sexual; infantile in its emotional development; will not take 'no' for an answer; is without verbal representation and therefore does not enter consciousness. It is regarded as the reservoir of the libido or "love energy" (note that libido can be read also as "Lib-Id-O"!).

    A popular interpretation of the id is not that it is "convincing" the mind to ignore social norms, but rather in itself just does not take social norms into account when 'thinking' or 'acting'. The id is the primal, or beastlike, part of the brain, determined to pursue actions that are pleasurable, such as eating or copulation. The prime motive of the id is self-survival, pursuing whatever necessary to accomplish that goal.

    ( In other word our instinctual animal side not very godlike )

    Ego

    In Freud's theory, the ego mediates among the id, the super-ego and the external world. Its task is to find a balance between primitive drives, morals, and reality while satisfying the id and superego. Its main concern is with the individual's safety and allows some of the id's desires to be expressed, but only when consequences of these actions are marginal. Ego defense mechanisms are often used by the ego when id behaviour conflicts with reality and either society's morals, norms, and taboos or the individual's expectations as a result of the internalization of these morals, norms, and taboos.

    The word ego is taken directly from Latin where it is the nominative of the first person singular personal pronoun and is translated as "I myself" to express emphasis. Ego is the English translation for Freud's German term "Das Ich."

    In modern-day society, ego has many meanings. It could mean one’s self-esteem; an inflated sense of self-worth; or in philosophical terms, one’s self. However, according to the psychologist Sigmund Freud, the ego is the part of the mind which contains the consciousness. Originally, Freud had associated the word ego to meaning a sense of self; however, he later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgement, tolerance, reality-testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory.

    In a diagram of the ‘Structural and Topographical Models of Mind’, the ego is depicted to be half in the consciousness, while a quarter is in the preconscious and the other quarter lies in the unconscious.

    The ego is the mediator between the id and the superego; trying to ensure that the needs of both the id and the superego are met. It is said to operate on a reality principle, meaning it deals with the id and the superego; allowing them to express their desires, drives and morals in realistic and socially appropriate ways. It is said that the ego stands for reason and caution, developing with age. Sigmund Freud had used an analogy which likened the ego to a rider and a horse; the ego being the rider while the id being the horse. The horse provides the energy and the means of obtaining the energy and information need, while the rider ultimately controls the direction it wants to go. However, due to unfavorable conditions, sometimes the horse makes its own decisions over the rocky terrain.

    When the ego is personified, it is like a slave to three harsh masters: the id, the super-ego and the external world. It has to do its best to suit all three, thus is constantly feeling hemmed by the danger of causing discontent on two other sides. It is said however, that the ego seems to be more loyal to the id, preferring to gloss over the finer details of reality to minimize conflicts with the pretending to have a regard for reality. But the super-ego is constantly watching every one of the egos’ moves and punishes it with feelings of guilt, anxiety and inferiority. To overcome this, this ego employs method of defense-mechanism. Denial, displacement, intellectualization, fantasy, compensation, projection, rationalization, reaction formation, regression, repression and sublimation were the defense mechanisms Freud identified. However, his daughter Anna Freud clarified and identified the concepts of: undoing, suppression, dissociation, idealization, identification, introjection, inversion, somatization, splitting and substitution.

    ( our social personality )

    Super-ego

    Freud's theory states that the super-ego is a symbolic internalization of the father figure and cultural regulations. The super-ego tends to stand in opposition to the desires of the id because of their conflicting objectives, and is aggressive towards the ego. The super-ego acts as the conscience, maintaining our sense of morality and the prohibition of taboos. Its formation takes place during the dissolution of the Oedipus complex and is formed by an identification with and internalization of the father figure after the little boy cannot successfully hold the mother as a love-object out of fear of castration. "The super-ego retains the character of the father, while the more powerful the Oedipus complex was and the more rapidly it succumbed to repression (under the influence of authority, religious teaching, schooling and reading), the stricter will be the domination of the super-ego over the ego later on — in the form of conscience or perhaps of an unconscious sense of guilt" (The Ego and the Id, 1923). In Sigmund Freud's work Civilization and Its Discontents (1930) he also discusses the concept of a "cultural super-ego". The concept of super-ego and the Oedipus complex is subject to criticism for its sexism. Women, who are considered to be already castrated, do not identify with the father, and therefore form a weak super-ego, apparently leaving them susceptible to immorality and sexual identity complications.

    ( Our opinion of what god is andwhat he wants us to be. Literaly our parents start out as our god till we find fault with them this kicks in )

    So are you saying god has a god ?

  • theMadChristian
    theMadChristian

    Trinity

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit