LittleToe, I've already learned to skip most of what Vinny writes in his posts. Who wants to keep rewading through that sort of muck? He said, "First of all, it is my personal belief that:"..... that seals it. It's just HIS BELIEF. Beliefs only set one up for conflict, which is what he relishes. His beliefs conflict with "atheists" beliefs, but they give him a definite sense of identity and a reason to keep harping in his tiresome way. This way he can make the illusion of his beliefs into something that he THINKS is reality. Of course, those opposing him do likewise. This is why there is so much conflict in the world.
Isn't God Awesome?
by Perry 450 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vinny
Hilary has no answers to my question and no arguments to rebuttle my points. But plenty of whining/crying and promises to leave the thread and cop outs. But then he comes back and still offers no answers or arguments and whines some more. Why not contribute something of substance Hilary? Can you do that?
So hilary, do you believe all things, the universe, earth, life upon the earth arose from NOTHING AT ALL? A big ole BANG, right into an earth with many amazing, harmonious and complex systems with atmosphere, water cycles, microbial, spinning and roataing at just the right speeds for life, all without any guiding hand of intellect?
That through this big ole BANG some primordial soup-like conditions resulted allowing some process where life can arise from lifeless? Where we have polymers to little fishes, to human brains and beyond?
Then if you believe THIS, then you my friend are the proud wearer of a red vette on your forehead; complete with pain job, door handles, fine tuned engine, gas and keys.
Go ahead put up or stop whining.
Yes I do beleive the bible is inspired of God. But I do leave slight room for the posssibility it is not. There is NO CHANCE that all things arriving from nothing all by themselves into amazing and complex things can ever happen. ZERO chance of that. But with the bible, I am quite convinced it is og God, though not 100 percent.
Here are some reasons why I do believe it probably is of God Himself:
"For me, the idea that all four of gospel writers just made up these accounts about Jesus Christ is not something I quickly buy into. The way they claim to have changed their lives, leaving many significant occupations and other personal things behind, leads me to believe they sure found something powerfully persuasive in this person called Christ. They also admit their mistakes which only adds to their credibility in my mind. Likewise the bible writer Paul; he certainly had something dramatic happen to him. He claims to have had a vision of Christ himself, became blind, went to Ananias as instructed and received his sight back. Then completely changed his direction from a persecutor of Christians to becoming an ardent member, one of the foremost of the apostles actually, spearheading the preaching of Christ to the Gentiles. The apostles did not even trust or believe him initially, which again, only adds to the believability in my opinion. I guess all of these writers could have just made these things up. That is possible. But it is also possible they happened just as were written. And if so, then we have some very interesting events taking place that would support Jesus' claim to be God's son, representing God himself. And if so, then what he says about God, about the earth, the future, life... can be and should be seriously considered. I would consider such a source as very reliable. Very trustworthy, *IF* these accounts about him are true.
The many prophecies written that had exact fulfillments adds ever more weight to possibility of the bible being more than just some good book. The bible's statement that the earth is round, and that it hangs upon nothing, though men at that time believed the earth was flat, again adds value to the claim that it is from a higher source than men. Are all of these just mere coincidences? It is possible, I guess. But it's also possible that these facts give evidence that the source of these prophecies and scientific accuracies is from a much higher source than humans, who cannot predict the future with any kind of certainty. There are not only a couple of such prophecies, but literally hundreds which exact, detailed fulfillment.
There is secular testimony as well, that Christ did exist and did perform miraculous events. The calendar we use today is based on the very year he was born. Just a coincidence? A person that really did not exist at all, or whose accomplishments were greatly exaggerated? Possible, I guess. But possibly not. The scriptures contain numerous accounts of miracles where people were brought back to life, sick and dying were healed, people were miraculously fed whether from food falling out of the sky or a few fishes feeding thousands, olive oil and bread jars that never ran out and other examples. Sea's were parted, were walked on and calmed down upon commands. You do not hear stories like this today, with hundreds of eye-witnesses to collaborate. This collection of books is available in over 2000 languages today. It the worlds best selling book of all time. The information contained is also very practical for those that wish to believe it and apply it. The Golden Rule for example. Children obeying their parents is another. Husbands loving their wives as their own bodies makes good marriages even better. And answer when mild turns away rage is a proven valuable principle in life. Jesus sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5-7 is still considered by many to be the greatest speech ever given. Priceless gems for many.
Is it possible then that this bible is from God? I believe it is possible, and even very probable. If so, if it is from God himself, then the very question as to how life arrived is answered. Because it also tells the reader that God himself made these things that we see today. No soup-like conditions that somehow evolved into the beautiful yet complex systems we see surrounding us today. It answers many of man's perplexing questions. Does it answer everything? No, it does not. Yet it does say there are new scrolls to be opened. It talks about everlasting life being possible for those that believe and apply God's sons teachings in his life. A life where death and pain and mourning are things of the past. Not the kind of life we see today. It promises these things we see causing pain and death and heartaches will be done away completely and permanently. That is a beautiful hope. Many other answers, too many to list here are given as well. If the bible is true then, the human race has much to look forward to.
For me, it does make sense. It does offer hope. It is worth putting my trust in. It does offer answers as well as a good measure of comfort. It is believable."
What is the significance of Josephus' references to Jesus? Josephus provides valuable, independent confirmation of the existence, life, and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. Leading scholar Luke T. Johnson offers the following opinion:
Stripped of its obvious Christian accretions, the passage tells us a number of important things about Jesus, from the perspective of a first-century Jewish historian . . . . Jesus was both a teacher and a wonder-worker, that he got into trouble with some of the leaders of the Jews, that he was executed under the prefect Pontius Pilate, and that his followers continued to exist at the time of Josephus' writing.
(Luke T. Johnson, The Real Jesus, pages 113-14).
We have therefore very good reason for believing that Josephus did make reference to Jesus, bearing witness to (a) His date, (b) His reputation as a wonder-worker, (c) His being the brother of James, (d) His crucifixion under Pilate at the information of Jewish rulers, (e) His messianic claim, (f) His being the founder of the tribe of Christians, and probably, (g) the belief in His rising from the dead.
(F.F. Bruce, op. cit., page 112).
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/mq12.html
Jewish authors recognize the miraculous character of some of Jesus' works.
1. Josephus.
Josephus is the earliest witness we have to the miracle-working of Jesus.
"The reconstructed neutral Testimonium also provides evidence about the ministry of Jesus. Josephus calls Jesus 'a wise man.' Note that this characterization is directly linked first to Jesus' miracles, then to his teachings. "He was a worker of amazing deeds" is an explicit characterization of Jesus' ministry as a miracle-worker, with stress on the effect those deeds had on others ("amazing"). Again, there is no detail; what kind of miracles Jesus worked, Josephus does not say. "
6. Hierocles wrote a piece on Apollonius and made several references to Jesus' miracles:
Interestingly enough he does not deny the reality of the miracles…Julian does not question the reality of the miracles, but asserts that they were ineffective in changing his audience…Julian's statement about the 'Miracle working and fabrication of the gospels' indicates that he could question the veracity of the gospel narratives, but in general he does not seem to question the belief that Jesus performed miracles.
Josephus affirms that Jesus worked miracles.
Early hostile Jewish tradition--in Justin and the Rabbinics--manifest the memory that Jesus did works of a miraculous nature.
The hostile Graeco-Roman writers [Celsus, Porphyry, Hierocles, Julian] accept that some of Jesus' miraculous works actually occurred.
There are two strands of independent, extra-biblical tradition that support the historicity of one specific NT miracle: The Feeding of the 5000.
The general trends and patterns in post-Jesus G-R literature and popular belief are easily explained (and perhaps 'best explained' or 'only explained') by the widespread acceptance by the Roman Empire that a real human in recent history (Jesus) had actually performed credible, 'sane', and non-bizarre miracles.
There ARE indications from extra-biblical sources which suggest that (some of) the miracle stories reflect actual historical events.
Even those who rejected Him acknowledged that He had unusual powers. Rather than deny Jesus' miracles, His enemies accounted for them by saying that He did them with the aid of the devil (Matt. 12:24).
Many books outside of the bible (Quran, Hippocrates, Apocrypha books etc.) have detailed descriptions of Jesus as well.
Cornelius Tacitus:
Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.
Lucian of Samosata:
Lucian was a Greek satirist of the latter half of the second century. He therefore lived within two hundred years of Jesus. Lucian was hostile to Christianity and openly mocked it. He particularly objected to the fact that Christians worshipped a man. He does not mention Jesus’ name, but the reference to the man Christians worship is a reference to Jesus.
Suetonius was a Roman historian and a court official in Emperor Hadrian’s government. In his Life of Claudius he refers to Claudius expelling Jews from Rome on account of their activities on behalf of a man Suetonius calls Chrestus [another misspelling of Christus or Christ].
Pliny was the Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (AD. 112). He was responsible for executing Christians for not worshipping or bowing down to a statue of the emperor Trajan. In a letter to the emperor Trajan, he describes how the people on trial for being Christians would describe how they sang songs to Christ because he was a god.
Both were ancient historians and both confirmed the fact that the land went dark when Jesus was crucified. This parallels what the Bible said happened when Jesus died.
Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.
Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead!
The four Gospels:
The four Gospels are the four accounts of Jesus’ life, which are contained in the New Testament part of the Bible. Historians will tell you that the closer an historical document is written to the time of the events it describes, the generally more reliable it is as a source of information about those events. Matthew’s Gospel account of Jesus’ life is now reckoned to have been written sometime between AD 70 and AD 80. Mark’s Gospel is dated between AD. 50 and AD. 65. Luke’s Gospel is dated in the early AD 60s and John’s Gospel sometime between AD 80 and 100. If Jesus died sometime in the AD 30s, it is clear that Mark, Luke and Matthew wrote their Gospels within living memory of Jesus’ death. John’s Gospel comes later and probably outside of living memory for most as John lived to an unusually old age for the ancient period, but the accuracy of his Gospel was verified no doubt by those who read the earlier Gospels.
Another feature of the Gospels is that they were written by men who either knew Jesus personally, or who knew people who themselves knew Jesus personally. Matthew was a former tax collector who became a disciple of Jesus. Mark was a close associate of Simon Peter, who is regarded as being Jesus’ most prominent disciple whilst Jesus was on the earth. Luke was a close associate of Paul who is the most famous of Christian missionaries and who wrote the largest contribution to the New Testament. Paul, in turn, was a close colleague of Simon Peter. John was the former fisherman who became the closest disciple of Jesus. The accounts of such men need to be considered at least seriously.
Bible prophecies are an atheists NIGHTMARE, Here are just some fulfilled prophecies.
1. Born of the seed of woman
Gen 3:15
Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin
Isa 7:14
Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham
Gen 22:18
Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac
Gen 21:12
Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob
Num 24:17
Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David
Jer 23:5
Lk 3:31
7. Tribe of Judah
Gen 49:10
Rev 5:5
8. Family line of Jesse
Isa 11:1
Lk 3:32
9. Born in Bethlehem
Mic 5:2
Mt 2:1-6
10. Herod kills the children
Jer 31:15
Mt 2:16-18
Concerning his nature Prophesied Fulfilled
11. He pre-existed creation
Mic 5:2
1 Pet 1:20
12. He shall be called Lord
Ps 110:1
Acts 2:36
13. Called Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 7:14
Mt 1:22-23
14. Prophet
Deut 18:18-19
Acts 3:18-25
15. Priest
Ps 110:4
Heb 5:5-6
16. Judge
Isa 33:22
Jn 5:22-23
17. King
Ps 2:6
Jn 18:33-37
18. Anointed by the Spirit
Isa 11:2
Mt 3:16-17
19. His zeal for God
Ps 69:9
Jn 2:15-17
Concerning his ministry Prophesied Fulfilled:
20. Preceded by a messenger
Isa 40:3
Mt 3:1-3
21. To begin in Galilee
Isa 9:1-2
Mt 4:12-17
22. Ministry of Miracles
Isa 35:5-6
Mt 9:35;11:4
23. Teacher of parables
Ps 78:1-4
Mt 13:34-35
24. He was to enter the temple
Mal 3:1
Mt 21:10-12
25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey
Zech 9:9
Mt 21:1-7
26. Stone of stumbling to Jews
Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22
1 Pet 2:6-8
27. Light to Gentiles
Isa 49:6
Acts 13:46-48
The day Jesus was crucified Prophesied Fulfilled:
28. Betrayed by a friend
Ps 41:9
Jn 13:18-27
29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver
Zech 11:12
Mt 26:14-15
30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple
Zech 11:13
Mt 27:3-5
31. 30 pieces buys potters field
Zech 11:13
Mt 27:6-10
32. Forsaken by His disciples
Zech 13:7
Mk 14:27+50
33. Accused by false witnesses
Ps 35:11+20-21
Mt 26:59-61
34. Silent before accusers
Isa 53:7
Mt 27:12-14
35. Wounded and bruised
Isa 53:4-6
1 Pet 2:21-25
36. Beaten and spit upon
Isa 50:6
Mt 26:67-68
37. Mocked
Ps 22:6-8
Mt 27:27-31
38. Fell under the cross
Ps 109:24-25
Jn 19:17; Lk23:26
39. Hands and feet pierced
Ps 22:16
Jn 20:24-28
40. Crucified with thieves
Isa 53:12
Mt 27:38
41. Prayed for enemies
Isa 53:12
Lk 23:34
42. Rejected by His own people
Isa 53:3
Jn 19:14-15
43. Hated without cause
Ps 69:4
Jn 15:25
44. Friends stood aloof
Ps 38:11
Lk22:54;23:49
45. People wag their heads
Ps 22:7;109:25
Mt 27:39
46. People stared at Him
Ps 22:17
Lk 23:35
47. Cloths divided and gambled for
Ps 22:18
Jn 19:23-24
48. Became very thirsty
Ps 22:15
Jn 19:28
49. Gall and vinegar offered Him
Ps 69:21
Mt 27:34
50. His forsaken cry
Ps 22:1
Mt 27:46
51. Committed Himself to God
Ps 31:5
Lk 23:46
52. Bones not broken
Ps 34:20
Jn 19:32-36
53. Heart broken
Ps 69:20;22:14
Jn 19:34
54. His side pierced
Zech 12:10
Jn 19:34+37
55. Darkness over the land
Amos 8:9
Lk 23:44-45
56. Buried in rich man's tomb
Isa 53:9
Mt 27:57-60
57. Raised from the dead
Ps 16:8-11
Acts 2:24-31
58. Begotten as Son of God
Ps 2:7
Acts 13:32-35
59. Ascended to God
Ps 68:18
Eph 2:8-10
60. Seated beside God
Ps 110:1
Heb 1:3+13
In particular, I always appreciated this one: The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Bible passage: Micah 5:2
Written: sometime between 750-686 BC. Fulfilled: 5 BC
In Micah 5:2, there is the prophecy that reveals that Bethlehem would be the birthplace of the Messiah.
For Christians, the prophecy is very powerful in a very simple way. It eliminates all other cities and towns throughout the world as a place in which the Messiah could be born. It narrows the possibilities to one tiny village just south of Jerusalem.
And throughout the span of the past 27 centuries, from the days of the prophet Micah up through the present time, Bethlehem is credited as being the birthplace for only one person who is widely known throughout the world. And that person is Jesus Christ.
The New Testament books of Matthew and Luke list Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus. Matthew 2:1-6 describes the birth of Jesus as the fulfillment of Micah's prophecy.
You see to many it is an old book, and I can respect that. But to myself and many, many others, it is much, much more than this. There are genuine answers and a real positive hope for those that do believe what it contains.
Yet even WITHOUT THE BIBLE, the idea that all of these amazingly complex features simply came to exist on their very own, without any help from a higher Intellect is just not acceptable, believable or even POSSIBLE to me. Every design has a designer. Universally proven as fact. Yet somehow you want to throw that out the window because you don't believe in God and you are adamant that such a God just could not exist. At least agnostics open the door for the possibility and even believe it is probable. You say NO WAY. That EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING that we see out there today arose either from some self-replicating polymer, which arose from DEAD MATTER, from sosme PRIMORDIAL SOUP-like quagmire, all on it's own, without any guiding force WHATSOEVER. That the entire UNIVERSE with all of it's PRECISION and ORDER and POWER just happened to result from some COSMIC EXPLOSION, without ANY INTELLECTUAL FORCE behind it at all, yet resulting in such precise alignment, that we humans (who came from that soup/dead-matter/polymer etc.) can tell exactly when and where planets, moons, comets, asteroids, stars etc. etc. will be located at any given moment in time. And that in the middle of this intricate, expanding, gargantuan universe, our perfectly located, tilted, spinning and orbiting EARTH just happened to fall right into place (and stays in place) with atmosphere, ozone layer, water cycles, just the exact amount of oxygen and other delicately balanced systems due to some fortuitous series of LUCK. A continuous stream of "FAT CHANCES" that all just fell right into place so that all of this LIFE could then arise from those soup-like, dead matter conditions where a polymer can turn into the human brain and beyond? Simply Impossible. -
stevenyc
Vinny, thank you for your detailed response, and your honesty in describing your beliefs.
Lets see if can some-up your explanation, for clarity:
1: Everything which had a beginning has a cause to that beginning
2:The universe had a beginning, therefore it must of had a cause
3:You take the words of the bible to be true and inerrant, and the final word against any conflicting evidence
4:The bible says God created the universe
5:The bible says God had no beginning
Before I discuss these points, I'd like to know if I understand you correctly.
steve -
looseend
Vinny,
I read your post where you explained you belief in god. You started out good but then fell off at the end. You mentioned that you were respectful of others beliefs then insulted their points of view in a very conceded manner. Anyway I am going to take a shot at your post since I am "DEAD IN THE WATER" right, nothing to lose.
The existence of Jesus is not something I am going to argue. I wasn't around then, but I do tend to believe that he at least lived. The lives of the apostles that were changed is not being argued. I am sure if they decided to write something about it, it may have been how they felt. Keep in mind that people can believe a lot of things when moved by faith. Faith heelers have very faithfull followers that swear by their "miracles". David Koresh still has faithful followers.
As far as prophecies being fulfilled most are just partly fulfilled, not to mention adapted from earlier beliefs of the same prophecies. My biggest complaint with the prophecies is that there is nothing new in them. There has always been famine, war, natural disaster, and suffering. If anything people are more humane now then in the past.
Just as you said that there was nobody there to see the beginning of the universe, there was nobody around now from Jesus' day to give eye witness to any event. So any miracles there were claimed in the bible, which is known for parables, is technically hear say from a group of men with the same beliefs from the same time period. The fact that the bible is still around doesn't give any clout to the matter, there are many of other scrolls that are from the same time period that aren't as highly regarded. I assume that is because the Romans, which lets face, allowed Christianity to exist.
You say that the bible says that god had no beginning. I assume if you can put your faith and life on one book you would have to believe that.
Although you mentioned that everything has a beginning, including the corvette, God is exempt from the very rule he presumably created. Time is not even really an argument. You went into some length about time but obviously if he is exempt from his own rules there isn't an argument. So if believing in a being that had no beginning, no end, and doesn't even live in the universe he created, that must mean that there must be some other space or place other then the universe. I guess it is logical to define something that defies all human logic. You weren't kidding faith is needed.
As far as everything being organized earthquakes and natural disasters are a necessity of the earth, they will continue to happen. Plates will continue to move and weather systems won't change. Stars blow up, planets collide, space is chaotic. The earth has been hit many times. The dinosaurs all died around the same time for that reason. That is proven look it up, in some reference that isn't religiously based. Oh and the sun is burning, it's made of hydrogen (gas) it will burn out, that's what happens when gas is on fire. Maybe god has to bust out that Exxon card to make that trip to everlasting.
I am running out of time, but you haven't answered all the questions. All you have done is quote the bible excluded all religious possibilities and demand that you must be right with absolutely no possibility of being wrong. At least science allows for improvement and error.
Oh by the way I do believe it was religion that has led to more bloodshed on earth then anything else in the history of mankind. I am glad "GOD" has it under control. I don't know about you but I wouldn't let anything happen to my children if I had an option to stop it.
I am glad that supposedly miracles were allowed in "bible days", but it isn't important to prove miraculous event other miraculous event, we have a book.
I can't prove that god doesn't exist but let's face it either can you. You can believe it but can't prove it. You can see the corvette there is no need to prove it. The fact that god still has to be proven in the first place, says that there is a possibility; if not probability that god doesn't exist.
I have one more request: prove to me that all the other gods that people have worshiped don't exist. Let's see if you can prove that any other god DOESN'T exist.
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looseend
Prove God without the bible, too. Jesus supposedly did it and everyone who lived before him. That shouldn't be hard for you.
By the way you are so incredibly arrogant, it makes me glad that I don't have that mentality anymore and reasures me of my beliefs. I figured I should let you know what type of stumbling block you are to others.
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hillary_step
Vinny,
You are the ultimate hot-air machine.
In an earlier post I dismantled all your verbose and blustering arguments with ONE simple sentence to which I need to add nothing. Look back in this thread and you will see it. You deftly ignored both it and its implications - a typical methodology of fundamentalist nit-wits.
Your whole argument rests on one thing, and one thing alone and this is that God has always existed because the Bible says so.
In the final analysis, that is IT, that is all you have.
Further along I dismantled this argument once again by posing two questions and you have been unable to answer my questions. I will quote my post in full.
Vinny,
Are you serious?....lol Do you actually think that you have come anywhere NEAR to answering this question? Let me show you just how ridiculous your 'answer' to the question of 'God's' morality.
Where did God get His Power? Simple, He didn't get it from anybody or any place; HE'S ALWAYS HAD IT. Nothing difficult about that at all.
No, he did not always have it. Prove my statement incorrect.
Who made God? Simple, nobody and no thing made God; HE'S ALWAYS EXISTED. Nothing difficult about that at all
No, he has not always existed. Prove my statement incorrect.
I am beginning to think that you are actually pulling our legs merely to get attention. I cannot believe that anyone who presents themselves as an expert on this subject could lack critical thinking skills to the degree that you display above.
HS
Are you prepared to offer proof for your assertions, and the onus is on your goodself to do so, or are you going to continue in this avalanche of verbal inanity that passes for argumentation?
So do not try the 'they offer no defence against my arguments' stance. Your arguments are neither new, nor inspiring and have as I have mentioned before been debunked so often on this Board that most of us are too bored to play. It is yourself that is avoiding the REAL issues. You are coming dangerously close to inheriting the headline we often save for 'Scholar', another poster to this Board who also claims victory on debates that he has been frimly trounced in - 'Knocked Out Boxer Claims Victory'. Search the archives of this site and you will note that your arguments have been presented before by those who actually understand them. They have also held little water. I have posted enough on this subject on this Board to last two lifetimes. I would rather poke fun at you, as let us face it, you are quite funny. HS -
Vinny
Poppers says:..."LittleToe, I've already learned to skip most of what Vinny writes in his posts."
**** Smart man. Otherwise, you would be stuck in the mud with the facts once you found out about them. You would realize that you have no answers to my many posted questions, and that all things arising from nothing, with no guiding force is flat out stupid and impossible. So just avoid those posts altogether and you can feel good about your atheism. Kind of sounds like the JW's. "Don't read anything critical". Great approach to life there Poppers.
Lets see if can some-up your explanation, for clarity:
1: Everything which had a beginning has a cause to that beginning
2:The universe had a beginning, therefore it must of had a cause
3:You take the words of the bible to be true and inerrant, and the final word against any conflicting evidence
4:The bible says God created the universe
5:The bible says God had no beginning
Before I discuss these points, I'd like to know if I understand you correctly.
steve
First of all, take the bible off the table for a moment. Without the bible at all, I would still be fully, 100 percent convinced that life, the earth and entire universe are the result of an Intelligent Designer, A Supreme Being, Creator or God if you will. The complexities and order the things surrounding us along with an abundance of harmony throughout cannot just happen by some fortuitous stroke of luck again and again.
You atheists can have your Big Bang, Abiogenesis, Evolutionary theories/hypothesis without any guiding force behind these processes then. I have no interest in what I have heard from any atheists so far on ANY of the threads. It's just so flat out illogical. All things from nothing? Crazy!
More soon. -
What-A-Coincidence
FREE YOUR MIND!
Freethinkers are convinced that religious claims have not withstood the tests of reason. Not only is there nothing to be gained by believing an untruth, but there is everything to lose when we sacrifice the indispensable tool of reason on the altar of superstition.
Most freethinkers consider religion to be not only untrue, but harmful. It has been used to justify war, slavery, sexism, racism, homophobia, mutilations, intolerance, and oppression of minorities. The totalitarianism of religious absolutes chokes progress.
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looseend
Vinny. (again)
Why haven't you addressed my posts.
Could your opinion about Atheists be that because you have been taught your whole life that there was a creator, and it would be a crushing blow to you if there wasn't.
It is illogical for you to think that the universe came from nothing, understandable, but it isn't illogical to think that god came from nothing. Your thoughts on god do make sense to a certain point, but contradict at the same time.
log·ic
–noun
1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. 2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic. 3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. 4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move. 5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts. Now if maybe we just don't know why the universe is here yet, admitting that we aren't as prized or special as religion lets on. That takes a lot of humility. Take another look at the "orginazation" of the universe. The universe works on a time scale that we can't even fathom. One more thing stop quoting Einstein, he gets misquoted enough.
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Satans little helper
Vinny,
Your answer as to the creator of god is the sophomore type circular logic that degrades the theist argument time and again.
Firstly you start your reply with "First of all, it is my personal belief that:"
Unfortunately (and I say this with respect) I am not interested in your opinion or personal belief. There are people in this world who believe that we were created by Thetans and others that god appeared to an American named Joseph Smith and gave him gospels written on gold, others believe that Kali will protect them from demons. Now there are plenty of belief systems which have opposing views and as such they cannot both be correct, thus belief and opinion is not a guarantee of correctness of an opinion.
You also assert that the bible is a source of reliable information. I assert that it is hogwash and nothing more than a tool of oppression used by the Roman Catholic church to control the masses. You no more base the proof for the existance of god on the bible than I can base the existance of Elves on the Lord of The Rings.
You suggest that everything has a beginning, then go on to state that the bible says that god has no beginning. That doesn't make sense and you have contradicted yourself, either he did have a beginning or he didn't. If he did then how did he start?