Satan's little helper, that was a good comment. Couldn't agree more. The funny thing is that most people that believe in god assume that atheists are out to get them or prove them wrong when at one point we all believed in something. It is a hard pill to swallow when you come to a realazation that you were lied too your whole life. I know I took it hard.
Isn't God Awesome?
by Perry 450 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vinny
(sorry looseend, you were next up, but hilary's laughable post of non-content beat you out!) I will try to get to yours tonight. If not, then sometime during the week. Though I have a BUSY workweek planned.
No human beings were there in the beginning of the universe to witness what exactly happened. Brilliant minds today can only guess and try to formulate theories. The bible says pointedly: "In the Beginning God Created the heavens and the earth". There is sound and reasonable reasons to believe, as many (including some of the most intellectual minds ever born) in Creation. That all life as we know it today was deigned by the only one who is not subject to time, the only one that never had a beginning. The only one that is not confined by space and bound by physical laws. Laws in which he created and therefore would not be subject to. None of which here is a stretch to either grasp, believe or understand. It makes sense to me. It is believable, logical and reasonable.
Some like to suggest, "well you cannot prove this, so you really cannot say with any certainty that you believe this". And for those that do feel this way, I disagree. I should add, I "respectfully" disagree. I have no problems with others that feel differently than I. But I can believe and do believe in the existence of God, through more than just faith itself. Though faith is an integral part of this equation too. In fact it is needed to a degree. But there is also EVIDENCE, logical PROOF that an Intelligent Designer is responsible for all features of life today. Complex, intelligent, purposeful systems that reflect the intellect of that designer himself. There are numerous court cases that have gone to trial where all of the evidence is circumstantial. Perhaps no body has been found. Still, today's technology now allows trace evidences and other signs to give very convincing testimony that a crime was committed. Juries have been thoroughly and unitedly and fully convinced to convict criminals based on such outside, circumstantial evidence exclusively. Likewise then, there are numerous "evidences" that all life arrived due to the hand of a Master Designer. The complexity and uniformity, the order and structure, the harmony of system after system, feature after feature, from the smallest molecules to the incredible living breathing life forces surrounding us all, to the incredibly complex earth where so many systems are just perfectly balanced all working together to allow life to exist are evidences to me that somebody surely must be responsible. The far more complex, far more powerful and awe inspiring universe with star after star, planet after planet solar system after solar system all beautifully organized, with inconceivable, unimaginable amounts of power and energy, give further testimony, in my mind, that these things did not just "happen" through some unguided series of accidents. Just some fortuitous combination of circumstances. A blind fluke of good fortune?
As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe". So though we cannot see God, we can see EVIDENCE that he does indeed exist. Just as we cannot see our own brains or gravity, or oxygen etc... the evidence that these things are nonetheless real is overwhelming. For myself then, evidence that God exists is even more powerful. The evidence supports this belief for me.
So in conclusion, I believe God had no need for a designer because he had no beginning. Time is his own creation, so he is not subject to it.
Please tell those following this thread just how these very complicated systems in the universe and the earth, along with all life forms upon the earth ORIGINATED. Just how did they START? If Science cannot create life, from non-living matter, in a controlled, scientific environment, nor give life BACK to a dead person or animal (though having all the parts needed right in front of them), then how could all these very things come to exist without ANY intellectual force behind them at all? Just FELL into place?
BWAAAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAH
Sure, there is a red corvette just sitting in North Dakota somewhere too..
ONCE AGAIN.
Vinny, Are you serious?....lol Do you actually think that you have come anywhere NEAR to answering this question? Let me show you just how ridiculous your 'answer' to the question of 'God's' morality. Where did God get His Power? Simple, He didn't get it from anybody or any place; HE'S ALWAYS HAD IT. Nothing difficult about that at all.
No, he did not always have it. Prove my statement incorrect.
Who made God? Simple, nobody and no thing made God; HE'S ALWAYS EXISTED. Nothing difficult about that at all
No, he has not always existed. Prove my statement incorrect.
I am beginning to think that you are actually pulling our legs merely to get attention. I cannot believe that anyone who presents themselves as an expert on this subject could lack critical thinking skills to the degree that you display above."
You tell us, "O great dismantler of nothing", what other conclusion do YOU come up with. Where did God get His power in YOUR opinion? PROVE ME WRONG.
.....................................still looking
You have not answered my questions at all.
Hilary,please show us ANY ARGUMENTS from you, much less where you trounced anybody or anything. Hilary atheists teachings have been TROUNCED THOROUGHLY.
Here, I will help you so you can't be too confused:
1- Hilary, how does life evolve from lifeless matter? Please tell us.
2- Hilary, how does it feel believing that red corvette simply could arrive all on its own since universe, life and earth (all far more complex) all arrived on their own with no intelligence involved?
3- Hilary, if its true that all these things just happened on their own, why cannot the same science and technology which sends folks to the moon, create ANY LIFE (even the simplest of living things) from non-living matter today?
4- Hilary, what about the universal fact of life PRINCIPLE that EVERY BEGINNING MUST HAVE A CAUSE CAUSE? What does THAT do for atheism?
5- Hilary, what does it say to you when people such as Einstein, Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, Max Planck, and thousands of others scientists, philosophers, leaders such as Ghandi, MLK, every single President elected and many other successful people as well as BILLIONS of others believe in a Supreme Intelligent Designer and REJECT ATHEISM OUTRIGHT.
"You may view this as a 'cop out' on my part, that is your perogative" (yes we DID)....
Name calling, no arguments, thinking they are so intellectual when they are in actuality just BLOWING SMOKE. -
Vinny
END OF THE ROAD:
****** This is a joke, right?
My rejection of atheism has everything to do with all things coming together by merely fat chances and luck. No way that can ever happen. Sorry. Even science cannot make simplest of things living from dead matter. Nada.
"Intelligent design", which the earth, and universe is abundantly filled with, very simply requires "intelligence", as well as "a designer". This is a simple and yet well accepted principle throughout all humankind wherever you go. When one sees evidence of intelligent design", one naturally assumes, rightfully so, that there is a designer. It can be a house; obviously that house was designed and built by SOMEBODY. It can be a thermometer, a computer a Red Corvette, a painting, deck of cards or anything else. None of these things just happened by themselves, did they?
There are many other possible reasons why he allows the problems to exist today. Helps us develop greater appreciation for life and health and even for God. Develops endurance, faith and other positive qualities. He is allowing man to govern himself for all to see the results firsthand. Humans are moved to think spiritually, to look for an answer to these issues when faced with these issues. Prepares us for something better. Draws communities and individuals together. But regardless of exactly why he does allow these problems to exist, there is sound reason to believe his promises that soon ALL of these plagues will be REMOVED once and for all by God himself. Those words are repeated over and over again in the bible. So even if I did not know exactly WHY he allows the miserable parts of life to exist, I can be comforted that it will soon be GONE. That is something I believe in and believe in with great confidence. It is a worthy hope in my mind. And it sure beats anything else I've heard up to this point, on this board, or in my life.
There have been no arguments explaining just how life arises from nothing. How complex things can be the result of blind chance without any intelligence involved. NONE. Just read the thread all the way through. In fact read all the reads I have been on over the last two months.
Atheists will sure have lots of silly arguments to go with their even more foolish and silly beliefs.
But I am done for now. It is time to put down the silly atheist debates and get back to work and family. I have heard all of the arguments. NOTHING is even close to being reasonable. There are so few answers anywhere. They have been thoroughly trounced and buried by their own beliefs in my opinion.
I have asked atheists for answers on many threads. But there are NONE. How does life originate from non-life all on its own? -
flipper
That's a LOT of words! I still don't know what's out there. Don't care that much. I'm into the here and now..... flipper
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LittleToe
HS:BWAAAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAH has always existed
Popper:My mind shuts down when I see such large posts. It has to be particularly engaging for me to even attempt to read something that long on a screen. Alas...
SteveNYC:That seems a reasonable distilation, from what I could glean before my brain shutdown
SLH:
Doncha just hate that circular thang?WAC:
I don't like that definition of "freethinker". If a freethinker is exposed to some kind of revelation then are they instantly excluded from the title? -
Sirona
Vinny,
THE END OF THE ROAD
Thank GODDESS for that! You are SO goddamn BORING. I think I lost the will to live on the second post...LOL
Just my opinion of course.
Sirona
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poppers
From Vinny:.... "So just avoid those posts altogether and you can feel good about your atheism. Kind of sounds like the JW's. "Don't read anything critical"...... You are making assumptions that are not true; I am not an atheist and have never been a dub. I am simply stating that I don't wish to revist all of the nasitness that the comes from you. Reading anything "critical" has nothing to do with it. You are trying to support an IDEA with ideas and logic - is that where truth lies, in the mind? Is so, why do you assume that? I ask the same of everyone.
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Sirona
Vinny,
Sorry for that last post. I'm being narky this morning.
Sirona
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Terry
Belief is about need. People who are needy and cannot provide for themselves resort to belief. It is an intellectual last resort
Justifying belief is a dead end. That is why arguments ensue. When you base your thinking on what cannot be demonstrated you must constantly battle to keep the dream alive.
Imagine how long an argument would last that denied the existence of George Bush! His imprint is everywhere and he is but a tiny insignificance in the great scheme of things. Yet, GOD, a transcendant being of all imaginable power is as elusive as a Unicorn or Bigfoot.
The reason is simplicity itself: imaginary beings cannot be instantiated, therefore; they must be constantly asserted instead.
A real God would be as unavoidable as the Empire state building and not as wispy and insubstantial as Santa Claus.
Religious debates merely reveal the character of the participants; mainly their nature and personality and insecurities.
We become what we fear. Apologists become a loud, droning void of insistence puffed up into an ego-fragile nightmare of defensive sputter, sturm and drang.
Ex Nihilo is a fairly recent invention and has never worked.
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AlmostAtheist
>>As Einstein astutely stated, "God does not play dice with the universe".
Einstein was rebutting the growing thinking among his peers that the universe was random, non-deterministic. There was a feeling that at the quantum level, things happened randomly -- truly randomly -- generating effects without causes. He didn't agree with that, and used "god" and "dice" to illustrate his point.
He was not testifying at the altar, he was making a point.
This is not to say anything about his personal spiritual beliefs. Only to provide context for his words.
Dave