Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward 45 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    RR comments re his salvation, "I'm sure, what about you?"

    Alward answers:

    I have no reason to believe that I or anyone else will be "saved"; I've never met anyone who has returned from the other side and told me what it meant to be "saved."

    Furthermore, RR, your certainty regarding your fate is at odds with the teaching in Ecclesiastes:

    "No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    >>Unfortunately for Christians, it’s not that simple, RR. The Bible gives conflicting advice about the path to salvation. In one place you’re told that faith is not enough, that you must give away all of your possessions: “l everything you have and give to the poor.” (Luke 18:22) Do you plan to do that, or have you done it already, RR?<<

    Blind men always take things out of context.

    Luke 18:19-27
    19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

    21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

    22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

    23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

    26 Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"

    27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

    Please read verse 27. That is the truth. That is the conclusion of the point of the context regarding this particular rich man. No man, regardless of what he does, can save himself. It is impossible.

    >>In another place you’re told that in addition to faith, you must `Love your neighbor as yourself.' …. "Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28)<<

    Those chosen would by nature do this.

    >>By the way, this is Jesus talking, the same Jesus Pom thinks was and is the “Jesus YHWH” who ordered the slaying of the Amalekites and the murder of the suckling babes in 1 Samuel 15:3.<<

    Jesus is revelaing his disciples would do this as they would naturally do as chosen ones. Jesus as a man would also follow his own counsel while existing as a man. But, in his glorified state of God, he read minds and hearts and can destroy wicked ones such as the Amalekites, which Joseph seems to have a loving hankering for.

    See the glorified Jesus Christ now Joseph and what he has to say:

    Rev 2:20-23
    21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

    >>In yet another place, you’re told that besides faith, you must do good works, “What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?” (James 2:14)<<

    Taken out of context again Joseph. You way is getting old.

    Works of mercy and works of sacrifice are two different works. As Jesus himself reveals to you Joseph:

    Matt 9:12-13
    13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy (works), not sacrifice (works).'

    Could these merciful WORKS be the WORKS that are talked about in James, works of mercy?? What example of these works does James give??

    James 2:14-17
    14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    The merciful works would be filling your needy brothers stomach and clothing his body and giving him place to live. WORKS OF MERCY, which works along with FAITH. If one has true faith, the works of mercy COME NATURAL. One cannot have faith without WORKS OF MERCY. They are like a left and right or head and body to each other.

    John 6:28-29
    28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

    29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    Sacrificial works don't cut it anymore. Merciful works are a fruit of Love that comes from the believing in God. Even faith in God does not come from within, it comes from above. He gives us faith to believe in him.

    >>And, finally, it doesn’t matter whether you have faith or not, do good works or not, because your salvation, or its absence, was decided before you were born, so no matter WHAT you do, your fate--good or bad--was long ago sealed. “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:3-6)<<

    You are half right here Mr. Joseph. But it DOES matter what you do:

    Gal 5:13-14
    13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

    1 Peter 2:16-17
    16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.

    >>Now, are you still so sure about how you might be saved?<<

    Yup. You?

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    >>"No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)<<

    Again, Joseph MAINTAINS his taking things out of context. The above is NOT a text to support a man NOT knowing whether he is saved or not, rather it is a text expounding on the fact that PRESENTLY, without God's justice, all men have the exact same DESTINY.

    Eccl 9:1-3
    9:1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him. 2 All share a common destiny-the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

    As it is with the good man,
    so with the sinner;
    as it is with those who take oaths,
    so with those who are afraid to take them.

    3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all.

    It is CONTEXTUALLY talking about the destiny of DEATH for ALL men "righteous" or sinner, it is not about being saved or not.

    Try reading the context Joseph. Quit dwelling on one sentence. You deceive that way.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Pom writes:

    >>"No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)<<

    Again, Joseph MAINTAINS his taking things out of context. The above is NOT a text to support a man NOT knowing whether he is saved or not, rather it is a text expounding on the fact that PRESENTLY, without God's justice, all men have the exact same DESTINY.
    ======
    Alward responds:

    If by "destiny" you mean "death," I agree that all men (and animals) share the same destiny. However, the verse I quoted above tells us that no man can know whether God waits with loving arms (salvation) or whether man finds only hate after death (no salvation). Thus, the verse is clearly stating that one cannot know whether one will be saved or not.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    >>However, the verse I quoted above tells us that no man can know whether God waits with loving arms (salvation)<<

    Where does the text say "GODS's LOVING ARMS?"

    IT DOES NOT. It says merely love or hate. Man has NO IDEA what the state of death is like. Is it GOOD or BAD?? would be a proper alternate understanding for these words to those ignorant of death, rather that claiming this is a teaching of salvation by God. (Which is NOWHERE in the context.)

    Love and Hate = Good or Bad.

    Man does not know while he is alive...it is unknown.

    >>or whether man finds only hate after death (no salvation). Thus, the verse is clearly stating that one cannot know whether one will be saved or not.<<

    Even the word "Saved" IS NOT written in the text, nor is the CONTEXT considering any kind of salvation doctrine. The teaching is everything dies. No matter what. Even the "righteous."

    Sorry, I have to stick to the context.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    After RR declared that he was saved, I quoted Ecclesiastes to support my contention that man cannot know whether he is saved or not. According to the Bible:

    "No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)

    Remarkably, Pom says that "love or hate" should be thought of as "good or bad," and that the verse refers to man's not knowing whether death is good or bad! Everyone then, as now, knows that death is bad, so Pom's interpretation to be too far-fetched to be given serious consideration. Furthermore, the author makes it clear that the state of death is bad, for he says

    "the dead...have no further reward" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

    When the author also tells us that man does not know whether "love or hate" awaits him, he cannot be speaking of what awaits the body in the grave; he is speaking of the chance of an afterlife, and whether one finds love, or hate. No mention is made of salvation, but what else could this "love" represent?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    >>Everyone then, as now, knows that death is bad, so Pom's interpretation to be too far-fetched to be given serious consideration.<<

    Sorry bud. Alot of the false religions around the early Israelites time were teaching all kinds of afterlife doctrines. Ecclessiastes was a book for the Israelites to find the truth inside a world full of all sorts of false religious doctrines that contradicted the truth. So, indeed, the picture is painted quite well for the truth seeker. The context still holds true and your interpretation leaves context in the gutter.

    >>Furthurmore, the author makes it clear that the state of death is bad, for he says

    "the dead...have no further reward" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)<<

    Ahhh. Correct. Which is the same thing the context is saying in the text at hand. The Bible has a resounding truth huh Joseph? Consistently saying the same thing in two different passages. Thanks for pointing that out.

    >>When the author also tells us that man does not know whether "love or hate" awaits him, he cannot be speaking of what awaits the body in the grave; he is speaking of the chance of an afterlife, and whether one finds love, or hate. No mention is made of salvation, but what else could this "love" represent?<<

    Read the CONTEXT Joseph. Not just one piece of a sentence. Afterlife is NOT the topic of context. IT IS DEATH ALONE.

    We done with this one yet??

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    >>When the author also tells us that man does not know whether "love or hate" awaits him, he cannot be speaking of what awaits the body in the grave; he is speaking of the chance of an afterlife, and whether one finds love, or hate. No mention is made of salvation, but what else could this "love" represent?<<

    Read the CONTEXT Joseph. Not just one piece of a sentence. Afterlife is NOT the topic of context. IT IS DEATH ALONE.

    We done with this one yet??
    >>

    No, we're not done yet. You need to explain why you think the author wanted his readers to believe that the "love" was one of the things which could await the corpse in the grave. If you can't do this, you should ask yourself whether the author had something else in mind besides mortal death when he spoke of the love or hate which awaited man.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    >>If you can't do this, you should ask yourself whether the author had something else in mind besides mortal death when he spoke of the love or hate which awaited man.<<

    This is what the author had in mind:

    but NO MAN KNOWS whether love or hate awaits him.

    Why should I go beyond what is plainly written. You are PLAINLY taking a sentence out of the paragraphical context and teaching it means something the context never mentions ot even hints at in the slightest...

    The plain context leaves your point waning Joseph.

    Give this one up.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    "No man knows whether love or hate awaits him (Ecclesiastes 9:1)

    Pom insists that DEATH is the only topic in Ecclesiastes 9:1-11, but he still has not explained how "love" can be awaiting one who dies, if it's not, as I've argued, the type of love God gives to those who are saved. Just WHAT iind of "love" do you think the writer thought might be waiting for the corpse in its grave, Pom?

    I've argued that the author is implying that the state of death of a man is no different than that for a dog, but there is a hope for man that after death there may be some kind of "love," which I associate with heaven, or salvation, but there also may be "hate," from a disapproving God, which we may crudely associate with no salvation, or perhaps a type of hell.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

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