Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward 45 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Pom:
    If I'm interrupting your flow, please feel free to ask me to butt out.

    Joseph:
    Do you have belief in anything the scriptures say?
    Do you have belief in anything?

    John 20:29
    Jesus said to him, "Is it because you have seen me that you have believed? How blessed are those who have never seen me and yet have believed!"

    Romans 3:3
    For what if some did not believe? Will not their unbelief nullify the faith of God?

    You use a straw man. Attacking Paul does not in any way change my sealing, nor my faith in God and His purposes.

    LT

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Joseph:
    Incidentally, your directing comments as though Pom were in the third person lends no weight to your argument, rather it comes across as quite condescending.
    Is this a debate, or are you trying to demean all opposers to your highly held opinion?

    LT

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Hi

    I suppose this comes down to the question: Is there any proof that the bible is inspired of God?

    This has been something I've been wondering about recently. Certainly, the effect that the bible has had on humanity is astounding, however, Islam is the largest religion in the world, so more people believe the Koran.

    This thread seems to have a "nasty" tinge to it . Can we debate without making personal attacks?

    Pom, I admire your faith. Please tell me how you feel so sure.

    Sirona

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Hi Sirona,

    Nice to see you posting.
    Don't worry, most of these threads tend to get a little heated at times. At the end of the day most folks tend to agree to disagree, and part friends.

    In the context of the thread, your point about the Koran is a good one.
    There appear to be many "Holy" books that espouse a way to salvation.
    They usual preach tolerance, too.

    I find it hard to believe that someone living in Siberia, or North America, at the time of Christ, would be damned for not reading the Torah.
    Paul seems to indicate something similar in Romans 2:14-16:
    For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,
    who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,
    in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.

    What part of the UK are you from?

    LT

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Little Toe believes that I'm affecting a condescending attitude by referring to Pom in the third person. I can understand how Little Toe might think that, but it is standard practice in internet discussion groups to do this out of respect for the (sometimes) hundreds of other readers of the posts. As I explained in another post, my messages are mainly intended for the other (sometimes hundreds of) readers in this forum; to constantly refer to Pom as "you" would tend to disconnect others psychologically from this thread. Thus, when I say "Pom believes this, or Pom believes that," I'm speaking not so much to Pom as I am to Little Toe and all the other readers. I mean no offense or condescension.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Sorry, if it was my misunderstanding, however I've always followed the standard practice of lurking in a forum for a while to guage the temperament, form and usage of a given forum, before posting.
    It was my understanding that this is an unusual form of address on this particular board, where direct address is more often applied.

    On a more personal note, I just hate being refered to in the third person.

    Just my 2p

    LT

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Little Toe writes, "On a more personal note, I just hate being refered to in the third person."

    But, there's no other way to REFER to you, is there? (Here I'm speaking only to you, Little Toe, so I use the word "you.") If I'm speaking to you, I call you "you," but if I'm referring to you, I use the title Little Toe. When I summarize to others what you've said, I cannot say "you said this, or you said that," can I? I say, instead, "Little Toe said this...." What I do is no different from the practice of one participant in a debate turning to the audience and summarizing his opponent's argument, "You just heard Mr. Smith say...." Mr. Smith wouldn't hate being referred to in this way, would he?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Joseph:

    I tend to try not to be so conscious of the audience.

    Your comment about "reference" is correct, but I assure you that is better to use direct address.
    That having been said - what have the Romans ever done for us?

    Back to the thread - You're making some interesting points.
    I don't neccesarily agree with them, but that's my perogative.
    At the end of the day, surely this is what this forum is all about - debate and discussion on the bible.

    Pom:
    Sorry to interrupt the flow of your debate, pal.
    Keep up the good work.

    LT

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    Firstly, anyone may interject at will. I am not bothered by other trains of thought, as I am sure it does not bother Joseph.

    >>If the God described in the Bible existed, it certainly could have done anything, I agree.<<

    Oops. Did you let the cat of the bag here? You don't believe in God?
    Funny thing how you demand all the answers and more and more answers, and even when I answer, you claim I side step. Yet when I ask a simple question to you, you BLATANTLY ignore and side step. Remember this one:

    >>Now, answer for me, do you believe in a God?<<

    Joseph remains silent.

    >>However, you haven't explained HOW you know that the men God chose to write his story were the men who wrote the Bible.<<

    To explain that to you would be like explaining how God created all things. Is that possible for me? No. But I do have a clue:

    Rom 12:3
    3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

    Faith is measured out by God. No, I can't explain HOW God does that either.

    >>How do you know that God's bible is not the Koran?<<

    Fruitage.

    >>Don't just say you have faith that it's so, or that you've gotten good feelings or vibrations or signs or revelations or indescribable happiness from "knowing" that the true God is the god of the Bible, because the Moslems say the same thing about their god and their Bible, too.<<

    With everything you have listed above Joseph, you reveal you are just like the Pharisees:

    Matt 12:38-39
    38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

    39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

    Matt 16:1-4
    16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

    2 He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

    Mark 8:11-12
    11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it."

    Joseph, Christ gives you the sign of Jonah.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    >>Alward wrote, "If the God described in the Bible existed, it certainly could have done anything, I agree."<<

    Pom writes:

    Oops. Did you let the cat of the bag here? You don't believe in God?

    Funny thing how you demand all the answers and more and more answers, and even when I answer, you claim I side step. Yet when I ask a simple question to you, you BLATANTLY ignore and side step
    =========
    Alward responds:

    Five days ago when I first came on this forum I introduced myself in a thread started by ISP; that was my very first post to this forum. You'll probably find the answers you're looking for there; I assumed you had read my post.

    Pom perhaps thinks that by accusing me of employing the principal argumentive tactic of the fundamentalist, he can deflect criticism away from himself. He is essentially accusing me of hiding my beliefs, of being afraid to be up front about them, of being evasive. It should now be clear that was never my intention; the post to which I refer should prove that. If Pom insists on making personal observations about me of a negative nature, he should at least be sure he's right.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

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