Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

by JosephAlward 45 Replies latest watchtower bible

pomegranate

>>I've argued that the author is implying that the state of death of a man is no different than that for a dog, but there is a hope for man that after death there may be some kind of "love," which I associate with heaven, or salvation, but there also may be "hate," from a disapproving God, which we may crudely associate with no salvation, or perhaps a type of hell.<<
There is nothing like that in the context at all.
But let's do this Joseph. OK? Let's say this is exactly the case even with the CONTEXT (which it blatantly is not.) But let's say it is. Let's say the context IS talking about the indefinite knowledge of love/hate after death meaning salvation/no salvation (as YOU are teaching....or whatever the heck you're doing.)
Be mindful of this FACT:
Prior to Jesus death and resurrection, unknown salvation would be the case, because the outworking of Christ regarding salvation of mankind would NOT have been known or understood by the Israelites reading Ecclesiastes at that time. They had no understanding how the sacred secret of Christ would work.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him- 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
1 Cor 2:7,8
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Eph 3:8-9
the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Post Jesus death and resurrection, the proof of ones personal salvation is given to all that God chooses as a token of that hope.
1 John 3:24
And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
1 John 3:18-20
19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
RR knows if he has been chosen.
You're not jealous are you???? [8>]
JosephAlward

Pom still has not explained how "love" can be something that might await the corpse in the grave, how it can be something found in death. Pom has sidestepped this question in order to provide other evidence that one can, indeed, know if one is saved. I completely agree that the Bible says in some places that one can be saved, and that this teaching could be used by Christians, such as RR, to "know" they've been saved. However, my point is that the Bible presents contradictory information on this matter; this is the principal theme underlying almost all of my posts. The Bible says one thing in one place, but an entirely different thing in another place. The reason there are so many different Christian sects with conflicting beliefs about salvations is that the Bible is not clear on this matter.On this basis, the Bible cannot be the word of a god; if it were, it wouldn't be so confusion to so many. An all powerful god would know how to show his Bible writers how to write a coherent Bible; since the Bible seems to be contradictory, it couldn't have been written under the guidance of a god.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>Pom still has not explained how "love" can be something that might await the corpse in the grave,<<
That was never your question. Your original problem was RR knowing he was saved and you used Eccl. against him. You have just introduced a red herring that has nothing to do with the topic you raised. Folks do that when they're cornered.
>>how it can be something found in death.<<
Well according to your very own words, it has to do with salvation remember?
>>Pom has sidestepped this question in order to provide other evidence that one can, indeed, know if one is saved.<<
I have side stepped nothing. I answered regarding the context, showing that YOUR taught meaning of salvation isn't there IN CONTEXT. Then, I gave you the beneifit of the doubt and let the context mean what YOU are teaching, and showed that because of the ignorance of the Israelite people regarding Christ and salvation as proven by Paul, they would not have understood the mechanics of salvation by way of Christ. Either way, your question has been addressed.
>>I completely agree that the Bible says in some places that one can be saved, and that this teaching could be used by Christians, such as RR, to "know" they've been saved. However, my point is that the Bible presents contradictory information on this matter;<<
No it does not. Again, even letting you read YOUR one sentence out of context, salvation would NOT have been known by the ancient Israelites, so even then your sentence CANNOT mean salvation as YOU teach. All the other points I posted previously would come into play, like the false worship around the Israelites that taught afterlife.
>>this is the principal theme underlying almost all of my posts. The Bible says one thing in one place, but an entirely different thing in another place.<<
That's what you say, but your evidence in light of how I understand the Bible is not convincing to me.
>>The reason there are so many different Christian sects with conflicting beliefs about salvations is that the Bible is not clear on this matter.<<
Naw. I believe it is becasue of another supernatural dude called Satan blinding the minds of the unbelievers.
>>On this basis, the Bible cannot be the word of a god; if it were, it wouldn't be so confusion to so many.<<
Again, it is man that is confused not the book.
>>An all powerful god would know how to show his Bible writers how to write a coherent Bible; since the Bible seems to be contradictory, it couldn't have been written under the guidance of a god.<<
I have seen no contradiction by your evidence thus far. If you call things going beyond the laws of nature a contradiction, well, like I have said before, that is possible for God.
Outside of the defiance of physics, I have seen no contradiction regarding anything you have presented. Just a lack of understanding.
Again, you have your faith Joseph. But it is not in God. You prefer to put your trust in men.
That's OK by me.
JosephAlward

For the third time, now, Pom has refused to explain how "love" can be something that might await the corpse in the grave, how it can be something found in death. I suspect now that Pom doesn't know how to answer this question, so I will drop it.
>>Again, you have your faith Joseph. But it is not in God. You prefer to put your trust in men.>>
Pom must think that the Bible was dropped fully formed into the desert sands to be found whole by man. Pom, have you not put your faith the men who decided which texts and traditions were to be included in the Bible, and which were not? How do you know these were not fallible men who might have made mistakes? Is it on faith alone that you believe these weren't ordinary men and that they couldn't have been wrong?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>For the third time, now, Pom has refused to explain how "love" can be something that might await the corpse in the grave,<<
Jeez Joseph, here, let me say this:
Love or hate DOESN'T await a corpse after death, that's the whole point, since we know the truth of Christ now. You're the one teaching it does, which the context(again) of the Bible passage isn't in harmony with.
The FULL context is the destiny of death, for the righteous and unrighteous, and the condition of BOTH while dead.
Destiny of death.
Read the CONTEXT Joseph. Not just one piece of a sentence. Afterlife is NOT the topic of context. IT IS DEATH's CONDITION ALONE.
Eccl 9:1
but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him.
But GOD DOES and He answers it PLAINLY:
Eccl 9:6
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
The context is death Joseph. There is no love or hate for a corpse, whether a righteous one or unrighteous one. Either going out, or coming in.
This text isn't teaching salvation as you continue to hammer without contextual backing. It is teaching the condition of the dead.
JosephAlward

We're getting nowhere on the "love" question, and I doubt that anyone this forum is paying attention to this issue, so we might as well drop it. I'll turn your attention back to the question of your faith in men:
>>Again, you have your faith Joseph. But it is not in God. You prefer to put your trust in men.>>
Pom must think that the Bible was dropped fully formed into the desert sands to be found whole by man. Pom, have you not put your faith the men who decided which texts and traditions were to be included in the Bible, and which were not? How do you know these were not fallible men who might have made mistakes? Is it on faith alone that you believe these weren't ordinary men and that they couldn't have been wrong?
Will you answer this?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
LittleToe

May I briefly interpose that the whole thrust of Pauls debate in Romans 8 points to salvation being in our possession by means of a hope. The hope having been cultivated by the action of the Spirit in our hearts gives fruit to a confidence in our eventuality.
Hence we are signed, sealed, and await delivery.
The destination becomes beyond question, if the sealing is sure.
LT
JosephAlward

>>"..the whole thrust of Paul's debate in Romans 8 points to salvation being in our possession by means of a hope...The destination becomes beyond question, if the sealing is sure."
>>
So, you put your faith in men, too? How do you know that Paul was inspired by God to make the claims he did? Aren't you using circular reasoning to have faith that Paul was inspired, so that you might then consider yourself saved if you have faith. In other words, you believe you are saved because you CHOSE to believe you are saved. What if you chose to believe that Paul was NOT inspired, along with the other Bible writers?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>Pom must think that the Bible was dropped fully formed into the desert sands to be found whole by man.<<
No I do not, just so you know and to keep the record straight.
>>Pom, have you not put your faith [in] the men who decided which texts and traditions were to be included in the Bible, and which were not?<<
I have put my faith in a God who can choose men to get his will and purpose done. My faith is strong enough in God that He has the power to MAKE men do the things that will make his Divine will happen. He will even use his enemies to do his bidding if that be part of His plan. Don't you think an all powerful God can CONTROL people?
>>How do you know these were not fallible men who might have made mistakes?<<
The men were assuredly falliable as much as you and I. The Apostle Paul often referred to his downfalls. The difference is God using them to the degree He desired to have what He wanted written down, through them. For a certainty, God could supercede the flaws of a man to have him write with infallibility the things He wanted written down, don't you agree?
>>Is it on faith alone that you believe these weren't ordinary men and that they couldn't have been wrong?<<
It is on faith and the lack of hard undeniable proof that it is necessary for me to prove it anything different than from God.
>>>Will you answer this?<<<
I answered but know not whether to your satisfaction. Now, answer for me, do you believe in a God?
JosephAlward

I have put my faith in a God who can choose men to get his will and purpose done. My faith is strong enough in God that He has the power to MAKE men do the things that will make his Divine will happen. He will even use his enemies to do his bidding if that be part of His plan. Don't you think an all powerful God can CONTROL people?
>>How do you know these were not fallible men who might have made mistakes?<<
The men were assuredly falliable as much as you and I. The Apostle Paul often referred to his downfalls. The difference is God using them to the degree He desired to have what He wanted written down, through them. For a certainty, God could supercede the flaws of a man to have him write with infallibility the things He wanted written down, don't you agree?
Alward: If the God described in the Bible existed, it certainly could have done anything, I agree. However, you haven't explained HOW you know that the men God chose to write his story were the men who wrote the Bible. How do you know that God's bible is not the Koran? Don't just say you have faith that it's so, or that you've gotten good feelings or vibrations or signs or revelations or indescribable happiness from "knowing" that the true God is the god of the Bible, because the Moslems say the same thing about their god and their Bible, too.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Is the Path to Salvation Clear?

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