The Bible Says that Jesus is God - Definately

by Sirona 41 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  TheCoolerKing

  The fact is that the Bible does make statements that are contradictory. That's what gives rise to a lot of confusion.

  I think that says it best Alan. That's why people can read the same Bible and come up with two or more different conclusions. This is an ongoing debate and a big reason why I have a problem with the Bible. I personally believe that the Bible was written by men, without divine intervention.

  And it's been mentioned here and it has always puzzled me. If Jesus is God than why does he have two personalities? The mean and vengeful God of the Old Testament and then the kind and loving God of the New Testament? And for those on the other side of this debate, how can God and Jesus, his son, be on the same page with humankind if they are both so different in personality?
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  timetochange

  Sirona,

  My thoughts on this:

  In Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 God Almighty tells Moses that he, Moses, would be "as God" to Aaron and to Pharoah. Moses had the authority of God when he spoke to both Aaron and Pharoah but he was obviously not the God Almighty.

  The OT speaks of a greater Moses that was to come this one is identified by Peter as the Christ, the Son of God, Acts 3:22. Jesus though spoke with the authority of God not as a mere man as Moses was but rather as a Son, one who is the exact representation of the Father. His name, Immanuel, signifies that very well because to see the Son was to see the Father. But never did the Son say he was equal to the Father. Everything God is the Son is also but one, God himself!

  If Jesus were God equal to the Father one would have to jump hoops to explain not only 1 Corinthians 15:28 (quoted below) but also all the many NT statements that clearly position the Father above the Son both during his lifetime and after his resurrection. The OT and NT use of the word "God" is much more sophisticated than the way it is used today. Religious fundamentalists try to make everything black and white, God on the other hand has made a world, spiritual and physical, of endless color and shade. He wants us to use our reasoning minds. Jesus is not God and yet Jesus is God for to see him and to know him is to see God and to know God.

  1 Corinthians 15:28, "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all." nasb
• 

  M.J.

  I hope to read this one soon:

  Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity
• 

  sir82

  The fact is that the Bible does make statements that are contradictory. That's what gives rise to a lot of confusion.

  Exactly so.

  The problem is that many people, not just JWs, take it as a priori that the Bible must comprise a harmonious whole, that it really has but one "real" author, and that its contradictions are not contradictions at all, but the result of "varying perspectives" or whatever. This leads to all sorts of mental gymnastics in the style of "well, that verse doesn't mean what it says. What it really means is this..."

  Anyone familiar with the standard JW responses such issues as the witch of Endor calling up the spirit of Saul, or Thomas' "My Lord and my God!", the parable of Lazarus & the rich man should be quite familiar with this style of convolution. But of course it's not just JWs - other groups go thru similar contortions on other texts, such as with Rev. 1:1 or Matthew 24:36.

  When you begin to view the Bible as a collection of unique books, written over centuries, by people with hugely, vastly, enormously different theological outlooks, it makes a whole lot more sense.

  And when you throw in intentional textual changes and translation "quirks" that were made over the centuries in order to present a more unified big picture (see Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus), you get an even better idea of just how diverse the original Bible writers' opinions were.
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  Gill

  If Jesus Christ was 'God' then why did he change his character in leaping from the Hebrew Scriptures to the Greek Scriptures?

  Why did he go from a genocidal maniac, to 'love everyone even your enemy' character in the Greek scriptures?

  Could it be, that in the final examination of all of this, it's as relevant to our existence as studying 'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's stone'. The only difference between the Bible and the Harry Potter books, is that in J K Rowling manages to keep her character's personalitys intact and constant. However, the Bible has a God with personality disorder that verges on Jekyll and Hyde.
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  Sirona

  Inquisitor

  Noone said anything about a trinity. You don't have to have a trinity if Jesus is God. - Sirona

  That's like asking people to explain what genitals are, without using the word "sex" or "reproduction".

  Nope. It is entirely possible for someone to believe that Jesus = God without believing in a trinity at all. Even the phrase "father, son and holy spirit" needn't mean a trinity since these three are not referred to as equal, from what I remember.

  In fact, there is a good argument for this triune idea having stemmed from earlier religions / cultures. Osiris (Father), Horus (Son) and Isis (Holy Spirit). Hence we have Mary as part of the mix in Catholicism (a feminine counterpart).

  Sirona
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  Sirona

  Let me clarify.

  Even though I started this thread, I do NOT believe in the bible and I do NOT believe that Jesus is God (not in the Christian sense). As a pagan I'd probably go as far as to say that Jesus is God only in the sense that we are all God.

  My point is that I think that the bible does say that Jesus is God.

  Sirona
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  Gill

  Sirona - I think that one of the interesting points this discussion has raised, and also proves, is that the Bible really can say anything that anybody wants it to say. It is a book of inconsistencies that allows the huge amount of bizarre branches of Christianity that exist all around the world.

  Jehovah's Witness teachings can be proved wrong with the Bible. Using the same book, Jehovah's witnesses teachings can be proved right.

  Which way a person chooses to jump depends on what they personally choose to prefer!

  Jesus IS God! In the same book, Jesus is NOT God!

  Which flavour does anyone prefer???
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  38 Years

  Thank you for this thread. I have some questions:

  Do you really have to decide if there is a Trinity? I've read so many pros and cons. What if there are too many theories and it's too confusing?

  Sometimes, I want to believe there is a Trinity because I was under the spell of the GB telling us there wasn't, but they are liars. So I always question my own reasoning skills.

  I still can't find a church and I would like to find some place to worship. It seems you need to have some type of stant with the Trinity issue. Or maybe not? Even the non-denominational church I went to for 6 months, believed in the Trinity. But what if I don't believe, where would I go?

  What are your opinions?
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  ninja

  here's a good idea...the people who don't believe the trinity...try to find out why trinitarians believe there is a triune god...really look up their thinking......look at all the scriptures and then weigh it up....