I've been studying with JW's for a few months.. (page 6)

MichaelM

I'm bad at putting knowledge together that i've gained from the help of many of you, and i really appreciate it. However.. I let my friend know about my troubles.. Concerning things based on the watchtower, I showed him the book "Jehovah's witnesses" by David A Reed and he used some kind of logic to use against most everything the guy said, and refused most of it.

My problem is.. This man that I study with, while a great friend, and has shown trustworthyness, and hes fairly funny on occasion and talkative.. He has power in his voice, hes a loud person.. he claims to be very logical, and he knows im VERY weak when it comes to debating things.. I feel that even if i present the strongest of arguements that he will somehow find a way around it.

Could anyone help me with some things to ask him? He called me tonight and said "I want you to give me all that you can, all the crap you can find, against the JW's, use it against me. I'll show you that I can explain everything, and if not.. if you find something that i can't answer and contradicts the witnesses and their current teachings, i'll join your religion , or hop on your boat, ya know?"

The issue here is.. I've talked to him about some watchtower past failures, like predicting things that didn't happen.. and he said "yes the watchtower makes mistakes and we try to correct them" etc. I've got to find some solid questions.. that can hold their own without me having to put a huge presentation to them because i'm not good at that. In his phonecall tonight he said "Michael, your very logical. your a real logical person, and i know your just a littel confused, but you'll get through all this and all the nonsense that your diving into. You'll realize that we have the truth and theres nothing to worry about. Maybe i'll grab a few witnesses and we can all talk with you."

That almost made me feel VERY uncomfortable.. but giving him the benefit of the doubt, he probably just wants me to see other witnesses oppinions. I'm somehow going to have to back up these questions too.. I want to go to that website the 6 screens of the watchtower or whatever.. I found some good stuff on there.. but i'll have to put it on disc or something, his computer doesn't have internet.

Vernon Williams

Michael,

Look.....these guys are good at arguement. Better than you. You are not going to "win." Period.

Ask your conductor this: "I have a new friend that has agreed to discuss a couple of topics by phone. Let us set up a speaker phone and have a discussion with him."

Say that and see what he says.

You will have, no doubt, a few volunteers. I would be one.

V

MichaelM

REALLY? that would awesome! I know he would do it too. He loves that kind of stuff. he WANTS people to try and prove him wrong. The issue is though the time we talk is when he runs his business, a little food place, him and his wife run it together and sell hotdogs and burgers and stuff, he doesn't work much, she does all the work and he just talks to his customers so it couldn't take place there it'd have to be at his house, but hes near crippled (truthfully is) so when he gets home he drinks up a storm, but maybe he wont if i tell him about a phone convo.

R.F.

Hello Michael:

Be VERY careful with JWs. They can be pretty tricky to get you to see their viewpoint. There is nothing wrong with you asking him questions. By him saying that you're "confused", that's like saying, "Michael, you know it's the truth, you just can't understand it right now." He's trying to put the thought in your mind that it HAS to be the truth and that you have no choice but to accept it.

Don't let him get a group of them together! That's a way to corner you and intimidate you. Have him discuss things with him ALONE if at all possible.

For him to say that he'll leave the religion if he can find something wrong is a stretch. First of all JWs are taught to put any doubts on the backburner and "Wait on Jehovah through the 'faithful and discreet slave'." It's a very slim chance he would leave his religion over his discussions with you. Too, JWs try to have an answer and reply to ANY and EVERYTHING. Please don't be fooled by this reasoning from him.

I'm not questioning his motives. I'm sure he is very sincere, but he is very misguided and he is using his Watchtower training on you. Im currently an active JW and i've used it on people for years.

I'm sure others can give you many different points to reason with him from but how about this:

How about you read and share the context of Galatians 1:8 with him and ask him about why the WT has a different "good news" now. The "good news" or "gospel" that Paul and the other apostles and early Christians preached was the simple message of Christ coming to earth, dying on the cross(stake), and his resurrection, and our accpeting Him as our personal Savior. The JW "good news" is that Christ has been enthroned as King of God's Kingdom since 1914 and is ruling invisibly. That isn't what the early Christians preached. DO NOT LET HIM SWITCH SUBJECTS!!! JWs are taught to be in control of arguments so don't give him the upper hand.

I think that is a pretty good point to start off with. I'm sure others will post others.

Highlander

Let me see if I got this right:

Your study conductor is a lazy, drunk with a loud voice that likes to argue.

He doesn't fit the profile of someone I would want to learn from.

Vernon Williams

Michael,

See what you can do to set it up. I can arrange my time to match yours....need a few days to arrange things at work....

PM me with time and date so I will be sure and get it.

Also, we will need to talk, first.

I doubt he will do it. The man sounds like a blow-hard. Time and circumstance will tell.

Again, make the arrangements and we will see how this "study" goes...not normally for him, no doubt...

V

MichaelM

I know your painting a solid picture but its not as bad as that. Hes a genuinely nice guy. he's around 60, has owned and ran his own stores before, he seems fairly smart, hes a white or black kind of guy, nothing in between. Another issue here if i didn't mention this before.. It would be crucial to say as well.. Hes like a father figure to me. I never really had much of a father at all as i grew up and hes the first older man to really put sense into me. It's not just the Witness thing.. he helped me with a lot of other situations like relationships and work related issues, arguements.. Sometimes before i got more into the bible study, i'd tell him for opinions not based on Jehovah and he wouldn't have a problem with that.

MichaelM

I really appreciate that Vernon Williams. Your going on on a ledge to help me understand things, and that really means something. But not just you, everyone here helping me with my problem of understanding these things.

I feel, really happy today.

TheListener

Have you ever bought a used car? Had a vacuum salesperson in your home? Or perhaps some other form of sales pressure applied?

Your witness friend, who I am sure is a good good person, is applying the same kind of pressure.

We could give you specific questions, but they wouldn't change a witness' mind. If they would my wife would have left by now.

Anything that requires this much pressure and persistence must surely beg the question: Why?

There is another poster on the board that I will pm and hopefully you and he can talk. His argumentation skills are excellent and his reasoning sound.

Highlander

Sometimes before i got more into the bible study, i'd tell him for opinions not based on Jehovah and he wouldn't have a problem with that.

Then he wouldn't have a problem if you choose to discontinue your wt publication study.

If he does have a problem, then you know his true intentions.

I'm glad you've found a father figure in your life. Everyone needs one, but I think in the case of guys, it's even more important to have a father figure.

Best of luck to you. I'm glad you're trying to inform yourself and can then make the best decision for yourself and know exactly what you are getting in to.

I've been studying with JW's for a few months..

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