I agree with Terry. Paul said that he would never have known sin if it wasn't for the Mosaic law. There. Sin was invented so people would see that they need saved. To get saved, you must agree with what the preachers tell you. You cannot simply be a good person. That isn't good enough. It used to be. What happened? The law covenant taught people to become needy and fearful of death and displeasing people in power over them. Hmmm...create a need then sell the product. Perfect! No offense to those who really find religion satisfying. More power to them. They will live a long time. It is just not for me.
Do you suffer from RELIGIOUS HYPOCHONDRIA???
by Terry 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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White Dove
Journey-on,
I agree with you, too. I believe that some intellegent power created all of this. I'm just not sure what or who that power is. I am trusting science and my own thinking ability to find the answer. I imagine that I will become board with the whole thing and drop it eventually.
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RAF
This is not to dismiss those events but to not let those events obscure the freshness of life as it actually is unfolding before you in this very moment. Most people are living lives based on memory and projection of mind into a future fantasy and completely miss what's actually real right before them. Devoid of analysis, judgment, and label what is here right now? That's reality.
Popper ... Please read my post again ... and read yours again please ... I don't think that you understood what I am talking about and you seems to mixe the matter of reality and how to deal with the everyday life regarding reality (if experience don't count in reality what is the reality all about? only about the NOW? I don't think so)
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Twitch
I would not bother to post here if I didn't get letters, e-mails, IM's, etc. practically every day for the last three years by truly tormented people looking for somebody to talk to and identifying me (because of my posts) as a rational source of dialogue.
Mostly, the people who contact me are troubled because they've seen the paint chip and peel off their beliefs and smell a rat where a God use to be.
I appear here to ask prodding questions mostly for one reason: I would want somebody to shake me up were I a part of a religious system that stifled my mind (as I once was) and especially if they would reason with me.
I'm a sounding board; not a guru.
I make no claims to special insight or high falutin' mystical sources of wisdom.
I am NOT an Atheist. I'm agnostic because I don't KNOW if there is a God.
I think it would be lovely to be convinced there is. That would be a mighty comfort.
But, it is dishonest for me to transform hope or wishes into an "I know because I believe".
There is only one thing I hate now in dealing with the beliefs of others and that is intellectual dishonesty.
What is Intellectual Dishonesty?
The unwillingness to be wrong if the facts/evidence/proof/logic/reasoning don't go your way.
Terry
I have enjoyed your posts for the questions and reasoning put forth. I appreciate your honesty in what you believe/do not believe and what you hate. I respect that fact you try to help those in need, those who identify with your questions and viewpoints. Your desire to "shake things up" in order to help people is admirable.
BTW, sorry I labelled you as atheist. My bad
I trust you understand my position on respecting people and the right to their beliefs, as irrational as they (the belief itself) may appear. Personally, if people want to believe in the flying spaghetti monster or whatever gets them through the day, it doesn't bother me one bit. Not my business or concern. What is my concern is how we get along, not whether we agree or not. If they think I'm going to die in some global bloodbath, go to hell for not believing as they do, am not as "enlightened" or whatever, that's not my problem and not something I bother to deal with. But that's just me. I'm ignorant, lol.
Now that James Thomas guy, there's a guru if I ever saw one,...
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poppers
From RAF: "(if experience don't count in reality what is the reality all about? only about the NOW? I don't think so)"
Experience is ONLY in the only time there ever is - NOW. Reality is RIGHT NOW! Just stop and ponder the significance of that and perhaps a transforming insight will unfold. When is life if not right now? But what do people do? They take memories (which also happen right now) and imagination about the future (which also happens right now) and they put so much attention on them that they miss the reality of now that is NOT from memory or imagination. They dwell in events that are actually over with or not yet here. So much consciousness is put there that life as it is before their eyes is missed or distorted.
And I am not suggesting that experience doesn't count in reality; I am suggesting that to be truly free you can't continue to cling to or resist experience that is already over or not yet here. Experience comes and you flow with it, but when it's over it's over - to let it control your life in some way is to become a slave to it rather than living life in the freedom of now. -
Paralipomenon
I thought Terry was atheist too. Now I can't say that I've never seen a militant agnostic anymore. :(
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journey-on
And as far as sin goes, here's my take on it, for what it's worth (2 cents?).
At some point in man's evolution, we became self-aware and conscious of the consequences of choice (free will). This is our creator interacting on a new level with creation...man, in this case. You make a bad choice, the consequences are bad. It was part of our "spiritual" evolution. Some choices were black and white. You eat this plant, you're poisoned. You eat that plant, you're satisfied. Some choices were not so black and white. Perhaps they were good for you, but proved detrimental to the tribe. Now you have to create rules and regulations...laws, if you will...to address these grey areas and govern the tribe. The leaders of the tribe probably directed this. Voila! Religion is born. Another step in "spiritual/social/philosophical/psychological" evolution.
Religion evolves. Now we're at a new crossroads of spiritual evolution.
Who is going to go forward? Isn't that the real question? I think it is safe to say that religion as we know it today is on the path of the dinosaur. What will the NEW RELIGION'S face look like?
The atheists say God has to be removed altogether from the equation. Religionists cling to God and the narrow Christian/Buddhist/Islamic/etc. way of defining God. Then there is this other area between science and spirituality, like me? WHERE ARE WE GOING AND WHO IS GOING TO LEAD?
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journey-on
RAF: Your responses to Poppers and J.T. makes sense to me.
Poppers/J.T:
Most people are living lives based on memory and projection of mind into a future fantasy and completely miss what's actually real right before them. Devoid of analysis, judgment, and label what is here right now? That's reality.
Have you ever stopped to think that in order to move forward, man HAS to look at the past and the future? EVERYONE cannot live in the here and now or our species would stagnate. For you and some others, perhaps that is the way you live and cope with your life. For the collective, that would be tantamount to stagnation IMO.
We create reality as a collective with our past dreams and imaginations. Invention and new technology is made from those past imaginations and dreams. If you don't indulge THE MIND, our forward progress would cease, or at the very least crawl along at a snail's pace.
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wherehasmyhairgone
With due respect may I offer this link to a google video link
Neil degrasse Tyson, who hosts the nova science series and is one of the brightest guys around when it comes to space and all that is big. Neil gives a excellant overview of nature and the universe
One thing he bring up is when we reach the limit of our understanding, when science reaches its current limits of understanding.
regards
steve
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poppers
From journey-on: "EVERYONE cannot live in the here and now or our species would stagnate. For you and some others, perhaps that is the way you live and cope with your life. For the collective, that would be tantamount to stagnation IMO."
Well, look around at what our world has become because of man's unconscious insistance on living life that's dominated by thinking. And BTW, I and others like me don't discount the usefullness of what comes from the mind as far as creativity and advancing understanding. What we point out is that when we create an IDENTITY out of what arises in the mind we become slaves to that identity and do everything we can to defend it, even to the point of killing those who threaten our IDEAS of what we are.
This way of living isn't a life of stagnation, it is a life that is freshly experienced moment to moment where action flows spontaneously rather than a life based on conditioning and REaction. Your word "collective" is very telling - is that what you want to belong to, a collective where you go along with the crowd consciousness? Or is there something beyond that, something sublime and beautiful and is free of thought, something filled with peace and fulfillment? Why not find out for yourself? Take nobody's word for this, find out for yourself; all you have to lose are your illusions.