Are you an a-xenist? (page 6)

Abaddon

Terry

Sorry old chap, you've fallen straight into anthropic thinking. Or putting the cart before the horse.

The Sci-Fi writer Douglas Adams likened this to a puddle, marvelling at how perfectly it fitted the hole it filled.

There is only one Earth with exactly what Earth has or had at a particular time in a particular way. That makes Earth a UNIQUE (unlike others) incubator. The fact that there are billions of similar (not identical) planets is not enough.

'Like' doesn't mean 'exactly the same'. A planet with similar composition, albedo, gravity and solar irradiance would probably be 'like' the Earth, just like I am 'like' my brother

If the Earth were closer or farther from our Sun there could be no life. Our placement is unique.

With respect, this is probably utter rubbish.

The Earth's climate (and conditions) could vary quite a bit before life-as-we-know-it was not possible; indeed life probably started when it WAS quite different from now. And there are strong reasons to believe life-as-we-speculate-it could form in vastly different conditions subject to its ability to pass on 'genetic' information with modification.

I don't see how anyone can claim that life evolved elsewhere without evidence.
You see, they can't

Yes they can. One can claim anything one likes. Whether it is a reasonable claim, one that is supported by evidence, is a different thing.

Your claim that life on Earth is unique and that there will be nothing like it elsewhere is not supported either way by the evidence (absence for evidence not being evidence for absence is a lot more palatable claim when we are talking about stuff billions of miles away we could not reasonably have evidence of yet), but is not supported by a better grasp of cosmology and biology, and an awareness of the danger of anthropic thinking.

While there is no evidence for life elsewhere, this is to be expected at this time, and cosmology and biology give reasonable certainty to claims life has probably developed elsewhere.

An organism living in the icy upper atmosphere of a gas giant, with ammonia taking the place of water in its biology, would gaze at hard rocky planets close to its sun and dismiss them as possible sites for life due to their searing heat and total absence of liquid ammonia!

To put it simply, just because we are here and can wonder at our existence and note how our environment is perfect for us does not mean other organisms with markedly different chemistry's and requirements for life do not wonder at their existence and note how their environment is perfect for them. Natural selection means we are 'perfectly' adapted for our environments, so of course it seems like they are perfect for us.

And don't make the mistake of thinking ven really smart physicists are good sources of answers for largely biological questions. Well, apart from Feynmann, but he's dead.

Paralipomenon

Overlooked? Mmmm.... or not noticed, like we don't notice ants even though we know they are there?

Jeffro

Jeffro,

"apathy" is a lack of pathos. I don't think "lack of belief" is loaded language, at all. Either people believe something, or they are open to the idea of believing on sufficient evidence, or they don't believe it. The latter two would lack belief.

Phrasing the question as "Do you believe...?" would have a 'yes' or 'no' answer, without any implied bias about the answer. Phrasing the question as "Do you lack...?" implies that if someone answers 'no', they are deficient in some way.

Terry

For instance, I am unique, but there aren't many unique things about me. Just because I'm unique doesn't mean another human male couldn't fill most if not all of the roles I've played.

Just as I suspected; you don't have a philosophical understanding of what it means to exist as an individual. Being unique escapes you as well as the importance.

I'm not criticizing you so much as nudging you to take a step back and give this a big rethink.

In what way can you exist meaningfully as your SELF if you are not unique? If you merely see yourself as a cog in some giant wheel then, yes, you are completely replaceable and that's that. Important in no way is what a cog is other than its function.

You might well want to ask why it matters if you are alive if you are only what you do and how others see you.

Otherwise, you might self-realize there is something in this Universe that ONLY YOU HAVE THE POWER to do and---dammit! YOU AREN'T DOING IT!

proplog2

Difference is everywhere.

There is the supposition that no two snow-flakes are exactly the same - but no one has ever checked this out.

"Significant differences" is what matters. Most people ARE replaceable.

AlmostAtheist

>>you don't have a philosophical understanding of what it means to exist as an individual. Being unique escapes you as well as the importance.

Don't read too much into what I was saying, Terry. You said the earth is unique, and I agreed with you. But I also asked if every one of its unique qualities were necessary in order to spark and sustain life. I used myself as an example. I'm a dad, a programmer, a JWD poster, a friend. No one could fill those roles EXACTLY like I do, but there are people who could fill them adequately. That doesn't demean my uniqueness, it just points out that the exact person I am down to every quirk and freckle isn't what fills the roles.

>>I'm not criticizing you so much as nudging you to take a step back and give this a big rethink.

I don't agree with your application of this to the earth, but I take the advice on a personal level and thank you for it.

>>there is something in this Universe that ONLY YOU HAVE THE POWER to do and---dammit! YOU AREN'T DOING IT!

Again, thank you. I will consider it.

Dave

Terry

Do you think it is possible or likely that primitive peoples encountered Gods and/or Goddesses possessed of incomprehensible capabilities?
Could our special advancement have been aided along by benefactors of an extra-earthly origin?

I think human progress has been fitfull in stops and starts that were often quite self-defeating.

The Greeks were magnificent thinkers, artists and creative minds who squabbled endlessly among themselves.

The Romans had bureaucracy down to a science but could not overcome the socialist tendencies which forced them to continue pillaging other races and civilizations for plunder to fuel their economy.

The Catholic Church had the world by the tail and ended up so meddlesome, venal and corrupt they were despised by all.

The Muslims spread learning, science and math far and wide until they turned inward and became fanatical luddites bent on snuffing out all light in the world but their own miserable spark.

The Renaissance sought to throw off the awful yoke of waiting on Christ's return as mankind got up off its praying knees and began creating art, literature, music, science in a flurry of self-actualization.

But, provincialism, theology, self-loathing and political hubris has pulled them back again and again into a muck of intolerance and abasement.

So, in short, NO!

We've had no help at all from anybody from ____outside___our own atmosphere. We've done it all ourselves for good or ill.

heathen

I just saw the best UFO evidence caught on tape 2 . I have to say it all looks so fake as to not even pose any threat to my firm stance on there not being visitors from outter space flying around in UFO's.

Terry

I prefer a fourth possibility: there are other forms of intelligent life out there, but that we have been overlooked.
It appears that Steven Hawkings is in agreement with my thoughts, thanks Terry.

I prefer Captain Nemo to Captain Ahab. Neither actually exist.

Terry

The Earth's climate (and conditions) could vary quite a bitbefore life-as-we-know-it was not possible; indeed life probably started when it WAS quite different from now. And there are strong reasons to believe life-as-we-speculate-it could form in vastly different conditions subject to its ability to pass on 'genetic' information with modification.

Are we to imagine you've said anything different than I said?

Review my statement:
If the Earth were closer or farther from our Sun there could be no life.

Compare that to what you said.

Terry

Most people ARE replaceable.

Speaking for yourself, of course.

Are you an a-xenist?

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