Are you an a-xenist?

by AuldSoul 72 Replies latest jw friends

proplog2

Terry:
No I think I am referring to book store clerks.
Abaddon
Terry
Are we to imagine you've said anything different than I said?
Yes "we" are.
You say that if the Earth were closer to or further from the Sun there could be no life.
I am saying our familiar forms of life could exist;
1. with a significant +/- to climate (c. synomonous with orbital distance as this is the largest driving factor in climate),
2. that life started with climate different from now (i.e. life could start at another orbital distance, as the same climate could result as a consequence of different atmospheric conditions or the same atmospheric conditions and a different orbit),
3. and that different life could exist at different orbits.
So yes, "one" can not only imagine but provide proof that I said something different to you.
But as I think you know this I am surprised you even ask.
Paralipomenon

A few things that aren't taken into consideration here:
1) The earth's orbit isn't circular, it's eliptical. That means that throughout it's orbit it moves closer and further away from the sun.
2) The earth is not a sphere, it's an oblate spheroid. The longer it exists the closer to disc shape it takes and the further it's orbit takes it away from the sun changing the climate slightly.
3) Conditions are relative. Our sun is a fairly small star, if it was larger then mars might be more sutible for earth's life. The weaker the star, the closer the planet could be. The stronger the star, the further away. That is assuming that earth's conditions are the only type hospitable for forming life.
Theists dismiss evolution because while it may be possible, it is not probable. I find it laughable that you chose the same logic to support your argument while blasting theists who use the same style in other discussions.
Essentially I chalk you up as someone that needs to see to believe. You cannot see God, so he doesn't exist. You cannot see classified documents so you believe there can be no conspiracies. You cannot see alien life therefore it cannot exist.
No offence, but years ago people laughed at the idea of germs because they could not see them. They mocked the idea that the earth was not flat. Belief only is what can be seen doesn't advance science and knowledge, it keeps it stalled in the present.
Einstein as a young scientist grew frustrated to no end with the older physicists of his day in their staunch refusal and rebuttal of the Theory of Relativity. Regardless of how obvious it was, many denied it right up until their deaths. As an offshoot of relativity, the younger scientists pioneered the field of Quantum Mechanics. This shook Einstein's foundation of physics and he was a firm opponent to the Quantum movement, constantly trying to disprove it. Every attempt to disprove it only led to another step forward in proving it as a real theory much to Einstein's dismay.
Not every new theory or claim is going to be true, in reality, most are proven false. But it's the process of continuing to challenge long held beliefs that ensures progress. I personally do not think that UFO's are alien's visiting our planet, but so long as there are people that do, they will keep looking to the stars and searching. Maybe they will never find anything, maybe they will. But that chance at discovery would not be possible if they listed to opinions such as yours and their efforts may lead to new discoveries that they had not set out to find.
Germs would not have been discovered if people listened to the wisdom of their day. America would not have been discovered if people headed the wisdom that the earth was flat. Relativity and the atom would remain myths if scientists listened to the "wisdom" of their mentors.
I don't know if there's life out there. Mathmatically if life could start here, it could start somewhere else as well. In thousands of years from now, we might find out that we are truly alone in the universe, but we will have explored the stars looking and have enriched ourselves in the process. We may find other life and a means to interact with them.
Either way, the pursuit of other life stands to enrich our own. I see no need to dig in and try to discourage those seeking.
Terry

But that chance at discovery would not be possible if they listed to opinions such as yours and their efforts may lead to new discoveries that they had not set out to find.
The entire Space Program depends on me then! That's daunting. I'm humbled.
Mathmatically if life could start here, it could start somewhere else as well.
What math is that?
In thousands of years from now, we might find out that we are truly alone in the universe, but we will have explored the stars looking and have enriched ourselves in the process. We may find other life and a means to interact with them.
Man's curiousity is enough to insure this. You can't seem to separate the process of exploration and discovery from the laser focus on extraterrestrial life. One does not need to include the other. No, really.
Abaddon

A Dutch scientist (says German in link but a name like Joop Houtkooper is Dutch even if he works in Germany) has just announced he believes a re-analysis of Viking (1970's Mars mission by USA) data supports some Martian soil being of biological origin, one which would see Hydrogen Peroxide use with water in the cells of the organism to prevent freezing.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/08/23/mars.soil.life.reut/
Paralipomenon

Terry, would you like to address the points of earth's elliptical orbit, shape or proportion of star to planet as it relates to your assumptions of earth being unique in it's life supporting capability? How about how your argument against life elsewhere mirroring and supporting the argument of creationists?

Your skirting the attacks on your stance and rather choosing to make sarcastic comments about my post and attacking my reasoning rather than the content is a common internet debate tactic. Usually it is used when someone doesn't have a concrete answer to the points raised, so they try to move the focus of the debate into more familiar territory where they feel more confident.

If you have no response to the above mentioned points then I will conclude my participation in this discussion. I enjoy intellectual sparring, not arguments.

If your replies were honest and you really couldn't grasp that my discussion was about people with your attitude and not you personally, then I fear further discussion will only confuse you further.
eclipse

This you tube documentary discusses the mathematical possibilty of other life in the universe, with professional scientists comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtVOhAl2ks&mode=related&search=
Abaddon

Para
I'd noticed that as well and cut back a rather cutting paragraph in my last reply to him as I thought a bit of benefit of the doubt was easy enough to give.
However, it has to be said, for a professed atheist Terry seems to truely consider giving (it out) is better than receiving (it back); he tried to make out he said what I said which I don't think he really thought for a moment, and either engages in similar obfustication or total evasion than admit to a weakness or error in argument.
Come on Terry, you have brains, use 'em. This disingenuousness gets old very quickly and people DO notice it.
Terry
Are we to imagine you've said anything different than I said?
Yes "we" are.
You say that if the Earth were closer to or further from the Sun there could be no life.
I am saying our familiar forms of life could exist;
with a significant +/- to climate (c. synomonous with orbital distance as this is the largest driving factor in climate),
that life started with climate different from now (i.e. life could start at another orbital distance, as the same climate could result as a consequence of different atmospheric conditions or the same atmospheric conditions and a different orbit),
and that different life could exist at different orbits.
So yes, "one" can not only imagine but provide proof that I said something different to you.
But as I think you know this I am surprised you even ask.
The discovery of life "elsewhere" is hardly of any interest or significance to one-celled creatures who can survive extremes of climactic harshness.
Framing the subject of the possibility of life in locations other than Earth has a "given"; an implied questioner asking the question "Does life exist elsewhere?". In other words: the sentient and curious enquirer.
Without the sentient questioner the debate, IMHO, is moot to begin with.
Look at the premise of this thread as presented in the first post by the thread's creator:
Are you someone who lacks belief in intelligent extraterrestrial beings? Do you believe it is possible that such extraterrestrial beings exist? Likely?
Do you think it is possible or likely that our planet has had interactions with extraterrestrials?
Do you think it is possible or likely that primitive peoples encountered Gods and/or Goddesses possessed of incomprehensible capabilities?
Could our special advancement have been aided along by benefactors of an extra-earthly origin?
The premise is vis-a-vis humans/sentient life forms outside of Earth.
Consequently, my focus is on life for HUMANITY in extremis of conditions for our Home, Earth.
Were we closer or farther from our Sun by not too many increments humanity would not exist and the questioner (He who asks 'is there life?") would not exist. The debate would be rendered null.
There has been a gradual dumbing down of the issue of life elsewhere to a narrowly defined point of "just any" life. The original premise was intelligent or even superintelligent beings who not only exist, but, impinge on humanity.
I not only do not see any probability of life elsewhere; I do not see any probability of impinging sentience elsewhere.
Paralipomenon

I not only do not see any probability of life elsewhere; I do not see any probability of impinging sentience elsewhere.
If you cannot see the probability of life evolving elsewhere, do you still make exception for it evolving on earth? By your own admission, life popping up on it's own is not probable so do you now embrace the truth that we were created by a higher power and placed here on earth?

Are you an a-xenist?

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