When God created Adm, did he knw that Adam wd sin? (page 6)

AGuest

You are not unlike the Watchtower with your arrogant assumption that people will see YOU as some kind of prophet...

Actually, Rex... and, of course, peace to you!... to the contrary, I am not like the Watchtower in that I don't wish people to 'see' ME... at all and that I most ALWAYS give the 'glory' to God and Christ... rather than take credit for something that is NOT mine. That is the VERY reason WHY I said:

"... my Lord prompted me to ask of you..." and "... he permitted me to make a reply..." and "He has now directed me to speak to you..." and "My Father wells knows..." and "my Father knows..."

I did not speak of my OWN initiative, just as I confessed to you. I took NO glory for myself but stated TRUTHFULLY to you my 'source', and acknowledged that rather than ME, it is the Father that 'knows', these things. I know them ONLY because they were given me by the Son, who was given them by the Father. I did not lie to you in this, and openly and willingly confess to you... now and forever... that I... know nothing.

You go on to accuse me:

"... then you reply with patently obvious points that require no insight..."

Well, okay. If YOU already knew this, more 'power' to you. But perhaps some did not. Either way, I did not question my Lord as to his REASON for having me speak; I simply heard... and obeyed. Isn't that what we're SUPPOSED to do?

YOU decided to reply...

Actually, Rex, you are in error. I 'decided' nothing. I simply heard and obeyed. In TRUTH, I don't always relish coming here and speaking. As you can see, I have not made a response in a couple days. That is because I haven't been directed to... and haven't wanted to outside of such direction.

God did not PROMPT you to do anything.

Well, literally, no. He didn't. Technically, however, He did, in that my Lord did indeed 'prompt' me. In fact, he directed me. And since he does what he is instructed by the Father, I must then conclude that indeed, my Father DID 'prompt' me. I am sorry, that you... and professed 'christian'... cannot seem to fathom that, though. Tell me, please, as a 'christian'... who... or WHAT... prompts YOU?

Sheesh.

Calm down, Rex. "Abusive speech" doesn't 'become' you.

You also still use the '' too much!

Uh, well, I guess all I can say is 'let the one without sin...'

Peace, my dear brother [in Christ?]

Your servant (as always), sister? and fellow slave? in Christ...

SJ

tyydyy

Has anyone mentioned that it wasn't Adam who originally sinned? Remember that according to the story Eve not only caved to one simple arguement by Satan but SHE also went to Adam and convinced him to sin also.

Adam was created with the need for the woman and did not want to live without her. Sounds like men were created with a character flaw. (If you believe that story)
I think Adam needed Johnny Cochran working for him.
"If the fig leaf doesn't fit you must aquit"

Tim B

SusanHere

Hello all,

I've been following this thread and wondering why nobody yet (that I have seen) has quoted the following...

"...you have been redeemed...by the precious blood of Christ...who was foreordained from before the foundation of the world..." 1 Peter 1:18-20.

Clear enough. Why would he be prepared BEFORE the earth was even created to be the sacrifice IF it was not known beforehand that a sacrifice would be needed? And IF such a sacrifice were known to be needed, then doesn't it make sense that there was a REASON why that "fall" of man was important?

Doesn't it say that it was not until AFTER the "fall" that Adam and Eve knew "good from evil"? So until the "fall" they were like little children, not even knowing they were naked, not knowing good from evil, and not able to be what they were created to become, which is people capable of knowingly choosing the right and rejecting the wrong and choosing to freely worship God with a wholeheartness only a free-thinking person can manifest.

So, yes. The "fall" was preknown. And necessary. And a blessing.

Susan

Yerusalyim

Good Post Susan!

Runningman,

Your "logic" contains an inherent fallacy. You said,

If God knew that Adam would sin, then God is responsible for all of the sin and suffering in the world. Since God is love, this is not possible.

How does God's knowledge make him responsible for Adam's choice? You are basically making the arguement that foreknowledge also means predestination. It doesn't. You come to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. That makes no sense at all.

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

4horsemen

Moxy asks, "how does God proves he is right?"

Answer?

When he decides its time, he simply exercises his power.

A better question for Adam (and us) is: Should we do what God says is right because A)he is right? or B)Because he's God?

One of the 10 Commandments "Thou shall not kill!" Unless I (God) tell you to, as occured when the Israelites were killing other races, I mean, annexing the promised land.

There are quite a few inconsistencies with gods laws.

As far as Adam and Eve's failure and Jesus redemption, that is only half a test. God and Satan are using agents as pawns to settle their dispute. But it is a moot point because no matter what no one has more power than God, and ultimately no one can check that power.

A real test would be to base your "power" upon the devotion and number of your followers. Then you wouldnt be so passive, but you might be accused of resorting to bribes ala Satan's claims against Job.

But so long as God cannot be killed, banished, impriosoned, or stripped of his power or have another is powerful as him, all tests, questions of "universal sovereignty" are irrelevant.

The integrity of intelligent creatures toward God is also pointless. If Adam was perfect, the angels were perfect and they chose independence, what prevents future (post 1000 year reign) disobedience? That the issue has been settled? And now all other cases are terminated (killed) instantly?

It's not about enjoyment, it's about power.

Rex B13

Hi Derek,
Refute the argument from scripture. Don't play at 'pushing my buttons'. If you had happened to study Romans at any length you would see how ignorant your statement was.
Rex

Yerusalyim

4horsemen,

The integrity of intelligent creatures toward God is also pointless. If Adam was perfect, the angels were perfect and they chose independence, what prevents future (post 1000 year reign) disobedience?

Excellent question. My answer; first, who said Adam was perfect, he was sinless, but not perfect in the same sense that God is perfect and CAN NOT sin. We have many choices while we exist in time. The angels exist in Eternity, which is a concept we can't trully understand. As such the choices the angels make are eternal choices. THIS is the reason Lucifer and company can't repent. The choice they made against God was an ETERNAL choice. It can't change anymore than God can change. Just so it will be with us, we are making our choices in TIME and when we exist in Eternity our choice will be eternal.

THIS IS NO TEST, God has NOTHING TO PROVE. To make this arguement presents God as a petty egotistical maniac.

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Rex B13

Running man,

>The situation creates a paradox:
If God is all-knowing, then he must have known that Adam would sin.

If God knew that Adam would sin, then God is responsible for all of the sin and suffering in the world. Since God is love, this is not possible.

First assumption is correct.
Second assumption is incorrect. Free will individual beings decided to rebel against God, they alone are responsible for any and all results.
Third assumption is amazingly wrong and uninformed: God is ALL OF THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES, including 'holy' (look up the word), vengeful, just, merciful, etc.....

>Whenever you have a paradox, you should always check your assumption.
The primary assumption in this case is that God exists.
The answer is really quite simple: There is no God.

No, YOUR conclusion is quite simply an error compounded by lack of information.

>So, the argument about what he does and does not know, or what he can and cannot do, is irrelevant.

Actually, that better describes your conclusion!
Rex

Yerusalyim

Oh, one more thing,

One of the 10 Commandments "Thou shall not kill!" Unless I (God) tell you to, as occured when the Israelites were killing other races, I mean, annexing the promised land.

The commandment actually best reads not to commit MURDER rather than being opposed to all physical death (killing). Ask any Rabbi.

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

AGuest

Dearest Susan... may you have peace and may I say to you:

Amen... and amen. I believe that what you so succinctly stated is what my Lord meant when he said:

"In order for the TRUE seed of God to 'come to life'... a 'seed'... had to die."

Please note the word "had". In gardening, it is 'death'... dead organisms that break down to fertilize the soil in order for 'life'... NEW plants... to come into existence. My Father knew that in order to 'cultivate' His seed in the earth, the earth would have to be 'prepared'. Death, then, would have taken place at SOME point. In this case, the blessing to US... was not Adam's death, but my... our... Lord's.

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SJ

When God created Adm, did he knw that Adam wd sin?

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