When God created Adm, did he knw that Adam wd sin?

by D wiltshire 79 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  RunningMan

  Yerusalyim:

  "You said: How does God's knowledge make him responsible for Adam's choice? You are basically making
  the arguement that foreknowledge also means predestination. It doesn't."

  First of all, if the future is knowable, then it is predestined. If it is not set, it cannot be known.
  Therefore: foreknowledge = predestination
  You cannot know something unless it has been determined.
  Since God created Adam, and he knew in advance that Adam would sin, then God knowingly
  created a defective human, and is therefore responsible for the results of the defect.
  I think we got past that point about 30 posts ago.

  Secondly, since this is a JW forum, I am assuming that people here have a basic knowledge of JW
  doctrines. This piece of logic is lifted almost word for word from the Reasoning Book
• 

  tyydyy

  Let's use some current events for the sake of arguement. Bin Laden didn't actually fly the airplanes into the WTC but does that relieve him of responsibility? No. Suppose President Bush knew that they were going to fly the airplanes into the WTC. If he did nothing to remedy the situation, do you think he would hold some responsibility? In my opinion he would be just as guilty as Bin Laden. We have laws in this country that say that if you do not render aid when you have the power to do so, you are committing a crime. Does anyone get this logic?

  I know, I know, some will say that God will remedy the situation in his due time but I don't think that justifies all the millions of women and children who have suffered in wars that an Almighty God could have prevented but did not just to prove a point.

  If there is a God like the Bible decribes (counting the hairs of your head because he cares so much for you) then justice would have condemned him by now for the failure to render aid to the millions who could have lived a happy life. Please don't use the arguement that God will resurect and reward those who suffered with a greater life in heaven. That makes as much sense as a wife beater taking his wife out to a nice dinner after beating her.

  Tim B
• 

  Rex B13

  Hi Shelby,
  You are as transparent as glass. Give it up. No one here believes you have any direct instructions from God, except those ones you bring over here from your little group on your own site.
  Just remember that those who presume to teach are held to a greater accounting.....
  Rex
• 

  AGuest

  Hey, Rex, and again... peace to you.

  You are as transparent as glass.

  Praise JAH! I have nothing to 'hide', Rex. Nothing at all. I WISH you to 'see' all of me... well, not ALL of me (you poor folks don't deserve THAT!)... but all that is in my heart.

  Give it up.

  Sorry, but I don't 'work' for you, Rex, dear. My 'pink slip' must come from another. And although on MANY occasions and for MANY reasons I have wanted to ask for one... I have not yet had the... 'nerve' to do so. WAY too much of a privilege to lose. Have TRULY had to 'guard [my] heart' where that is concerned, because one might just receieve what one asks for. And in truth, I don't want to lose it.

  No one here believes you have any direct instructions from God

  Okay. But please know that no one... has to.

  "... except those ones you bring over here from your little group on your own site."

  I have no site, Rex. I posted what I was given. You do not see my name there... or any where. It is purely information and in fact includes a hopeful direction that the reader does NOT need to contact anyone, but WILL exercise faith and rely on holy spirit. Yes? Or did you miss that? The last page should help you out if you did.

  "Just remember that those who presume to teach are held to a greater accounting..."

  Actually, I am not a 'teacher', Rex. At least, I do not consider myself to be one, and I don't think anyone else here considers me one, either. I am PURELY... and solely... a messenger. A good-for-nothing-slave. A 'teacher'... knows his/her subject... as well as his/her pupils. Yes? I have told you: I know nothing. I only share with you... what I am given by my Lord. HE knows things; that which the Father gives HIM.

  But, not taking lightly what you have stated here, I DO understand... COMPLETELY... the 'greater' responsibility. That is why I 'test' the spirit and speak only what my Lord grants me to speak when referring to him as speaking. If it is of my own initiative, I try to state that, by saying that I AM 'on my own'. Do I ALWAYS do that? No, not always. But if it is something received from my Lord, I ALWAYS give the credit... and the glory to him and my Father.

  I cannot TELL you the 'fear' that is in my heart that I might do as Moses did, LET people 'provoke' me, so that I speak 'rashly' with my lips... or my heart. I have come quite CLOSE to it, on many occasions. When I am slandered... and reviled. But... by the grace, love and mercy of my Father, JAH OF ARMIES, and His holy spirit that I receive from my Lord, His Son, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, I seem to always manage to get a bit of that spirit that is love... long-suffering... and self-control. And I KNOW it is them... and that spirit... because it is NOT me. I do NOT love that much, truly... and I do NOT possess such long-suffering and patience (self-control)... on my own. I PROMISE you.

  It is YOU, Rex, and folks like YOU... who give me credit... and glory... that I do NOT 'deserve'. You think I speak of my own initiative, that I know this stuff. I have tried and tried to tell you, though, that I do NOT. I am nothing more than you and, in fact, am LESS than you. I promise you that. I did not and DO not 'receive' because I am 'special' or 'better'... nor do I wish you to ever think so. I have confessed and hid from NONE, that I am a 'foremost' sinner. Yet, I 'receive'... SOLELY... and PURELY... because I exercise FAITH... and listen. That is the ONLY reason. I hear... put FAITH in what I hear and from whom I hear it... and I obey.

  You, too, have the capacity to hear, Rex. EVERYONE does. But... when you DO... you do not exercise FAITH in what you hear... and obey. That is the ONLY difference between me... and you... and anyone else.

  That's it; that's all. And if you look at ANY of those 'prior' to me... it was exactly the same with them. No matter whether they had committed murder, adultery, coveted, even served another god (Nebuchadnezzar)... when my Lord and my Father SPOKE... they HEARD... and exercised FAITH.

  Hebrews 12:25
  John 10:27

  And THAT... is all that is 'required'.

  My peace remains, and I remain,

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  4horsemen

  Yerusalyim,

  Thank you for correcting my mental laziness. You are correct. Adam was not perfect, he was sinless, and the human state of "perfection" is clearly separate from the station of spirit life.

  A question for you.

  When you say "Just so it will be with us, we are making our choices in TIME and when we exist in Eternity our choice will be eternal."

  are you saying that from that point forward (_the_ final test) human beings will be incapable of choosing to act independent of god?

  Would that not be relative free will? Sort of like diet pepsi?

  As far as Exodus 20:13 goes. "You must not murder." It should be amended to "You must not murder, unless provisionally." One of those provisions being Exodus 3:8. And the justification for such being found at Numbers 14:7-9, Numbers 33:50-53.

  God as the Creator doesn't have to prove anything, yet time and time again he does so by a demonstration of his power. My contention is what's the point? It's like playing poker knowing that even if you opponent dares to raise/call you he can never take your grub stake because you can deal yourself a royal flush at will.

  As far as God not being a petty, egomaniac which God are we talking about, the one in the OT or the NT?

  How would you classify this scripture provided in the context of the plagues against Egypt...

  Exodus 9:13-17 13.The is what Jehovah the God of the Hebrews has said... 14. ...to the end that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth. 15. For by now I could have thrust my hand out that I might strike you and your people with pestilence and that you might be effaced from the earth. 16. But, in fact, for this cause I have kept you in existence, for the sake of showing you my power and in order to have my name declared in all the earth.

  Then again, maybe Pharaoh was a real stubborn guy.
• 

  Xena

  Oh sure put the blame on Eve. Who was the head of the household and therefore ultimatly responsible? Adam probably knew about the talking serpent and didn't tell Eve. Adam was a Blame-Shifter!
• 

  Rex B13

  Running man,

  Yer said: How does God's knowledge make him responsible for Adam's choice? You are basically making the arguement that foreknowledge also means predestination. It doesn't."

  You said:
  >First of all, if the future is knowable, then it is predestined. If it is not set, it cannot be known.
  Therefore: foreknowledge = predestination
  You cannot know something unless it has been determined.
  Since God created Adam, and he knew in advance that Adam would sin, then God knowingly created a defective human, and is therefore responsible for the results of the defect.
  I think we got past that point about 30 posts ago.

  As long as you ignore relevant posts, you not only did you not get 'past this point', you are back to square one. Do you understand 'FREE WILL' or 'GRACE'?
  God created a perfect pair, holy and righteous, which allowed them direct access to Him. Yes, he knew they would sin but He did not want mere puppets. He wanted a race that would love Him for who He is. He had a right to expect them to obey Him since they are from Him. They are created in His image.
  Despite their own rebellion, He gave them grace. They died a spiritual death that day, yet He allowed them to exist physically with the foreordained messiah set to break into time from eternity.
  Where you who limit yourselves to Watchtower heresies get lost is disregarding the immortal soul and the fact that God sets the days of our lives in the first place.
  That's all He ever asked of any man, worship only Him and not false gods or the creation itself.

  >a JW forum, I am assuming that people here have a basic knowledge of JW doctrines. This piece of logic is lifted almost word for word from the Reasoning Book

  That's why it is totally wrong. We agree there.
  Rex
• 

  Rex B13

  Hey Tim,
  God DID take responsibility.

  He came to the earth, became the God-man, proved He was deity by His words and actions, was tempted in every way, was beaten to a pulp, predicted that He would lay down His life and pick it up again, resurrected Himself and redeemed mankind with HIS OWN shed blood.

  As in the beginning, all he asks is that we worship Him alone in faith and He will provide us with eternal life, residing with us in eternity. This is the whole reason for life, this is the sole reason for life. Great intelligence or riches gives no man the advantage. Human reason and logic cannot figure it out, science only raises more questions as it learns more. Neither can speak to faith or spirituality, they can only cast doubt for those who are not called.
  Rex
• 

  tyydyy

  He came to the earth, became the God-man, proved He was deity by His words and actions, was tempted in every way, was beaten to a pulp, predicted that He would lay down His life and pick it up again, resurrected Himself and redeemed mankind with HIS OWN shed blood.

  
  Jesus did not endure anything that thousands if not millions of his followers didn't endure for an entire lifetime.

  He gave his blood? First he had to make his blood then he let someone shed it. Big Deal. Why didn't he just fix things the easy way and save everyone all the heartache. Remember God makes all the rules. So if he defines justice then who can question him? Who can question him now? If you believe in the God of the Bible then you believe that if I continue to oppose god then I will die and go to hell. Right? If God will draw the line someday and say "See, I told you it wouldn't work" Why couldn't he just say " Trust me, I know it all. It would never work" Then he could have just destroyed his defective creation and start over. If you were worried about the issue of the Right of Sovreignty...........He's the Almighty for Christ's Sake. He created everything. He has the right to do whatever he wants. Noone would have a problem with that as long as they had the threat of hellfire.

  Human reason and logic cannot figure it out

  
  What? Wasn't Adam made in God's image? Now we know that it wasn't physical. So, how WAS Adam in God's image? Surely God created us with at least enough intelligence to understand why we exist. Right?

  Sorry. I have rambbled long enough.

  Tim B
• 

  Yerusalyim

  4horsesdude,

  What I'm saying is that in eternity, our choice, like that of the angels, will be an eternal choice. 1 John 3:1 tells us that when we see Christ (in heaven) that we will become LIKE HIM and He is LIKE GOD who is incapable of sinning, and for that reason, while we will still have free will, our WILL, will be like that of Christ in tune with the Father's.

  YERUSALYIM
  "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
  [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]