Do you really want to save us? (page 7)

Sad emo

Wow - you guys posted the same thing while I was typing!

Sad emo

worldtraveller, let me rephrase - why should you automatically believe in God just because you believe in evolution?

AlphaOmega

Maybe I'm just not cut out for it then. I've felt extremely low in the past, and I never once thought there was a higher power. I knew that I would need real solutions, real help from real people. It's like when people pray to God if a relative is in a serious condition in hospital. If they get better, they believe God was with them. But they forget about the doctors and nurses who did the real help. I've just never understood it. Who they help to recovery is completely random- Muslims, Hindus, Christians, atheists, etc. Same with when people are at a low point. Sometimes something will come along- a friend may come round just before they commit suicide say, but other people go through with it and kill themselves. It seems like pure coincidence to me who God helps and doesn't help.

I don't think it is a question of "being cut out for it"... that implies predestination, which seems unfair, and on the face of it also a denial of free-will.

It may seem like a pure coincidence, and that also seems unfair... I agree. I think that when I have been in my "low...very low" situation, I was not looking for God to act as an external force, more like I was wishing him to act through those around me... In the words of Douglas Adams...

Douglas Adams , in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy , uses his Babel fish to demonstrate a rationalist/fideist paradox:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

No one can hand you a pre-packaged answer. If they claim to do that, then they are likely trying to lead you somewhere that THEY wish you to be, for their own reasons. It may well be down to "seeing what you want to see"... For example... Are daisies growing through cracks in concrete a nuisance, or are they a demonstration of nature starting to take control ? Even the BIG examples of miracles are explained away (or attempted to be so)... and for some those self-same miracles are proof of the exsistence of a greater power. That is the beauty and the frustration... no-one is forced to believe. It's just really rough when you are in a Mulder-like state of "wanting to believe", yet the experience that would convice you eludes you. AO

nvrgnbk

Thanks for all the sincere replies.

My question was sincere.

wings

I always seem to catch these threads in the end....I'm trying to learn.

Back to your sincere question. Yes, if I had that mission of the born again Christian to evangilize....I would try to save you. But unfortunately, I just another who has been pushed through the meat grinder of the WTS,and at this point I couldn't explain salvation if my granddaughter's life depended on it. I have however not lost complete faith, and I will hold on to that with all I have. From that I will share.

You are a 4th generation JW. I understand somthing about this because I married a 4th generation JW. If any family is involved.....I understand.

My tidbit....I believe that there is a simple message in the Bible. A message of Jehovah (excuse the use of the "name") wanting to have a relationship with his creation. Reconciliation. All his promises revolve around this, the message of his kingdom is about this. He loves us....really He does.

Jesus came so we wouldn't have to try to be so great and glorious all the time, like the true JW mindset. Instead we can just approach Jehovah with the simple faith that we understand that we couldn't do it, so he did it for us.

that's all I got

RollerDave

NVR,

I'd tell ya if I knew, but I'm still trying to figure out what I believe myself.

I really think that a lot of folks approach it in the 'wts=Jehovah, wts=lie, therefore Jehovah=null' manner.

one of our biggest arguments against the WTS is that they make themselves one and the same as Jehovah in a functional manner, I would hate to grant them this point in reverse.

I think it takes as much faith to say 'there IS no God' and accept evolution as it does to say there is and believe in creation.

As for saving you, NVR, I'd throw you a rope or bail you out no prob, but when it comes to preaching I might be just a bit burned out on the concept. Chalk it up to the field misery.

You look at both sides and see which one makes sense, and for me it's belief.

The idea that all of this just happened, that random chance crafted all of this, that evolution is capable of the diversity of life we see, it just makes no sense to me.

There's rough bits where I am still negotiating with myself, bit that's the overall thrust.

Wish I could be of more help,

RD

Mum

As a person who was not brought up from birth as a JW, I think my perspective is a bit different. My grandparents were right wing fundamentalist Christians who actually lived what they believed every day. Unlike most people I know, my earliest experience with people of faith was positive. I think that experience laid the groundwork for the JW's with their glib know-it-all approach to ensnare me.

After I realized what a sham I had bought into and personally experienced the twisted "value system" of the so-called "elders," I was out. Then, when I married my second husband, I became an Episcopalian. Episcopalians are not evangelical and are very open to ideas and questioning. There is no insistence that there is only "one true church" and a person's salvation is between that person and God.

It's up to you to save yourself, buddy, to "work out your own salvation" as it says in scripture somewhere. Now we could open a new debate on what it means to be "saved."

nvrgnbk

Thank you.

flipper

NVR- I'm sorry I can't save you from the "christian " standpoint, however I still want to help you save yourself. Since leaving the witnesses my views of a spirit in the sky and how our life is affected is somewhat between the native americans views of an entity and the Buddhist views of Karma, that what goes around comes around back to us in life. John Lennon made an interesting statement on this before he was killed, he said something like, " I can't change you but you can change you. Hanging on to the Beatles or living in the past is an unreality, because it's a fantasy. " He said, " I can put little signposts up for you or the Beatles talked about all we need is love, but it comes down to you as a person that has to make that difference and do it. "

I too like many posters here were totally burned out on organized religion, me being brought up as a witness too. I don't feel anyone needs to go through any organized religion to be accepted by what someone may call " God ". Perhaps I'm an agnostic who believes something is up there making it rain, sun shine, seasons, etc. but I can't control it. I just try to be a good decent, helpful person to the people I love in my life as well as others that cross my path each day. My motto is, when I wake up each day I ask myself , what positive difference can I make in someone's life today? And I go with that, and it makes me feel better at the end of each day. Maybe I've made a difference, maybe I haven't but hey at least I keep myself positive by trying to give to others. I'm not saying it's the only way, but it seems to help me. We love ya bro, you have a lot of heart and good things to help others with in your takes and advice too. I speak for Mrs. Flipper and myself, we have benefitted from your help at times too. Peace to you Nvr, Mr. Flipper

nvrgnbk

My love to the both of you, Mr. and Mrs. Flipper.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Peace!

Do you really want to save us?

Share this