SURVEY: Who Believes In "God"?

by minimus 100 Replies latest jw friends

  • RollerDave
    RollerDave

    I absolutely do believe in God.

    I make no apologies for this, nor do I have to defend my position.

    I was cured of trying to convince others to believe like me in the JW's!

    I know that the God of the Bible, specifically the NT, is way different from the "god" of the NWT. I know that the WTS and God are two seperate things, and rejecting the decrepit old fools in Crooklyn does not mean rejecting God.

    I don't think having belief makes one illogical, read my post history; I am a logical and reasonable man.

    Yet I believe.

    Can I explain every aspect of my belief? No, not at this time.

    I'm still hashing it all out myself.

    But that doesn't stop me from believing.

    I think it takes as much faith to deny God as to embrace Him, and even more to swallow the whole evolution/humanist religion that goes along with it.

    Those are my thoughts, because the thread asked. Not preaching, not inviting debate, just saying, is all.

    RD

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    raises hand
    I believe in a Creator >Whom I believe is Jesus ,Father,Holy Spirit,They who were together in the beginning as the Bible teaches. (To Create ALL) .... I read the Bible but have trouble believing it is ALL inspired.
    After leaving the WT & losing all my family,friends,I tried hard NOT to believe in GOD!!!!
    But I have to be honest. I pray to him constantly & truly do believe he helps me in my everyday life.I honestly have to say I find him to be better than ANY friend I have ever had, to tell you why -would only make you laugh--- But this is MY opinion.
    Yes there are times when the old flesh takes over, & I goof,As I did with Black Swan!!
    But I can say since leaving the WT ( or since they kicked me off the ARK) I am floating on a much more comfortable raft. If I am wrong, Well time will tell. & at MY age "time marches on"

  • V
    V

    Dogmatic agnostic.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    It amazes me to know that whoever believes things are too complex to have come about on their own just has to look up some information on the big bang, cosmology and the formation of stars and planets, abiogenesis and evolution. This type of questioning has already been answered, long ago, with mountains of evidence to back it up.

    How does a star or planet form? Well we've seen them through telescopes in different parts of the universe at different points in their life. It can all be explaned. I'm sure just going to wikipedia or the NASA site will give people these answers.

    Believe in a god by all means, but not knowing how these things happen isn't an excuse to believe in a god. We know already how these things happen. Does it come down to people wanting there to be a god so much that things like facts go out the window? It should be emphasized, there is no reason to believe in a god.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    Dogmatic agnostic.

    Now that's funny!

    Does it come down to people wanting there to be a god so much that things like facts go out the window? It should be emphasized, there is no reason to believe in a god.

    Is belief in God just the ultimate in CYA?

  • Merry Magdalene
    Merry Magdalene

    I know it was rather long, _wraith, but did you read any of my post on page 3? I would be interested in what you (or anyone else) think of an approach that argues not from complexity but from limitation, finitude and dependency. As the beginning of the quote stated:

    The scientific method is limited in that it can only deduce rules by repeated observations of physical phenomena. Thus the question of the existence of God does not and cannot fall into the realm of scientific thought because science deals with the mechanisms of events and phenomena within the universe i.e. the tangible and not intangible. To test the hypothesis to apply scientific proof for or against God, one would effectively have said that God is "testable".

    Therefore, logically one would conclude God to be within the universe since God must be physically tangible in order to test. Since God is tangible and contained within the universe, God must be limited and therefore cannot be God. Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion, which is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is love. To prove or disprove the existence of a creator we need to go beyond the limitations of the scientific method and proceed rationally for it is only rational thought which has the ability to deal with an issue like this.

    ~Merry

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    The following does not disprove the idea of some kind of deist god who started everything off, but it does remove the need for such a being.

    Thus scientists are falling into the same trap as the blind followers of religion, which is they are implicitly defining a role to God as the 'one who makes things work'. Since scientists have explained how things work the question of God does not arise. Those who argue from this angle have falsely assumed an attribute/essence of God in the same way Christians say God has a son or is love.

    But with this method, scientists can eliminate certain gods from the discussion. For example, if the Bible says that every animal was made as we see it today, and that humans were created 6000 years ago, evolution and the evidence for it removes Yahweh from the picture. I think the koran teaches humans were made as we see them today after coming from a clot of Allah's blood. So Allah too can be removed from the discussion.

    When we look around at everything we can sense, these things share one factor, and that is that they are all limited. By limited we mean that they have restrictions, a starting point and an ending point, and they all have definable attributes, i.e. they are finite. Man is born and he dies. There is no one alive who will not die. During his life span, he will grow to a certain shape, height and volume. The universe is defined as all the celestial bodies... All these objects have a certain mass, shape, volume and so on. The life span of a star may be very long, but a point in time will come when it will cease to exist.

    Perhaps it should be worth repeating what many people may have forgotten from their school lessons. Energy cannot be destroyed, but it can be transferred. For example, when animals die, their bodies decompose in the ground and transfer their energy. The energy is not destroyed. It becomes food for other animals, etc. When a star dies, it gives off a burst of energy/matter which helps to create new stars. While things are finite in the way we observe them, they are eternal in that they change in some way and help new things to 'arise'.

    ....No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited. A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self-sustaining or independent.... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence....

    We may be perceiving an infinite universe. While ours certainly had a beginning, the universe itself (as in everything outside this one too) could be infinite. Our sun is self sustaining, in that it doesn't get its energy from outside itself. But it is limited in how long it can sustain itself, I'll agree.

    There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created.

    An alternative would be that the universe has always existed, and has always passed on its energy in different ways to keep things moving along. It may be hard to fathom, so what's helped me is to look forwards for a moment instead- I believe the universe will always exist in some way or another. Even if it looks nothing like it does now, the components are here, the energy is here, it can be self sustaining. I look backwards in the same way. If the future is eternal, then why can't the past be eternal? Like numbers. We can count 1, 2, 3 and so on forever. We can also count -1, -2, -3 and so on forever.

    Dependent on something to start and sustain life, and something to plan and develop life.

    If this universe has been planned to sustain life, how is it that out of a billion billion planets, only one that we know of supports life? How come the life on this planet would die instantly in any other part of the universe except for within this atmosphere, on land that is not too cold and not too hot on a planet which has more oceans than land, near to drink and food sources and which needs to make shelter for itself much of the time because the elements in the nicest places still aren't nice enough? As planning goes, it isn't a good plan.

    Some scientists challenge this with a theory that everything depends on something for existence, which in turn depends upon something for existence, and so on ad infinitum. This theory is irrational, as it...uses an idea of 'infinity' that we know does not exist in reality....

    But we don't know this. While things within the universe can die out, they help new things come to be. The cycle continues. Whatever happened just before the big bang could still have been a natural event. There may be countless universes, with the death of one helping a new one form. There could be one, which expands, is destroyed, yet passes on all its energy in creating a new big bang. There are many many theories, none of which require a god. It will be exciting to find out what really happens.

    Hence, looking at any planet in the universe, contemplating on any phase of life, or comprehending any aspect of man provides a conclusive evidence for a Creator, what Muslims call Allah(SWT)

    Of course if it turns out there was a god behind the big bang, it certainly won't be Allah. It's more likely to be Atum, who people believed made the universe by ejaculaing it into existence.

  • Merry Magdalene
    Merry Magdalene

    Thank you for replying s_w! I don't have time to read your answer carefully now as I am trying madly to childproof my house before I babysit a toddler 2 hours from now.

    I will take a sec to say

    I think the koran teaches humans were made as we see them today after coming from a clot of Allah's blood.

    is not a correct understanding. Allah swt is not a creature of flesh and blood. I imagine you are referring to 96:2 of the Qur'an regarding man coming from a clot of blood. Please see HERE for an explanation.

    ~Merry

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Merry,

    I expect you're still busy so you haven't been able to get back to this topic yet, but I'd be interested to know if you think I effectively refuted the argument or not? If not, you could explain how I failed. Or if you think I have, I think it would be dishonest for you to use the same argument when speaking to other nonbelievers from this point on. It would essentially be trying to trick them to believe in a god, because it may sound convincing to them if they don't know how to refute it.

    I'm open to any other 'reasons' for believing in a god, but you should understand I came to the atheist position after researching the many reasons and refutations in great detail. I've found (so far) that there is no reason to believe in a god. It comes down to wanting god to be true so much people believe, or not knowing all the refutations to the arguments for god's existence. I'm open to being proved wrong though. Are you?

  • Madame Quixote
    Madame Quixote
    Who Believes In "God"?

    Not me, but I think everyone already knows that by now.

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