144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula 65 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  tula

  It was the "jehovah witness" bible! Quoted verbatim (parenthesis and all) !

  NWT
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  JCanon

  For Paul, the "saints" could not arise before Jesus himself has risen. Yet the gloss fails to bring Matthew fully into line with Pauline theology since the bodily resurrection of the righteous dead still takes place before Jesus.

  All the more reason to consider whether a "saint" was considered one baptized in Jesus. That could be a point prior to Christ's death but still related directly to Christ. That's where I'm leaning...

  JC
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  JCanon

  If that scripture is right, then they were raised up to go where? not to heaven but to their homes in the city. To do what?

  John 7: 28 I tell YOU , Among those born of women there is none greater than John; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of God is greater than he is.”

  People dying before Christ could not be anointed into the kingdom. Once that happens they attain a greater greatness than even John the Baptist who is not sealed by that holy spirit. So those dying during Christ's time missed this distinction just by a short time. So it made a difference if they were alive at Pentecost. Thus their resurrection, the resurrection of those who had been baptized in Christ but then later died before the death of Christ, being brought back after Christ's death made a big difference for them, because then they could attain a greatness greater than John the Baptist. Their resurrection allowed them to be alive after Christ died which made a huge difference as far as the kingdom was concerned.

  JC
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  JosephMalik

  Leolaia, Your explanation supports what I have said. It answers the questions you posed. And Narkissos' implication that the grammar does not support this view is simply his opinion. The facts, the setting, the trip to Pilate to get the body all set the stage for it. It would be fitting for Matthew to add this information to Mark's gospel to explain why this happened that way. Just filling in he blanks as other Gospels have done. This is also the context in which it was given. Furthermore it is also a good demonstration of how words such as resurrection can be used. The Revelation demonstrates another stange use of this word. They are not so restricted as to mean only one thing and opinion does not change that. It is because of use such as this that false doctrines developed in the first place. We know that Christ was raised first, in the true sense of a resurrection. We do not have to guess that the grammar supports these bodies as having come to have life simply because they were resurrected from the rocks. Why insist on it?

  Joseph
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  writetoknow

  Throughout the scriptures ones have tried to restrict God by their interpetation of bible even when Christ walked the earth. However, each and everytime Christ did just the opposite of the commonly held view!

  Shocking his listeners with forgiving sin before he became the sin offering.

  So to when He simply stated time and time again that He is life and those believing in Him have life already. Of course that is not enough for most Christain, that is, the simple child like faith in a Father that loves them until they are facing death.

  Thus, witnessess and other groups teach physcial teahings that restrict the power of God. Those that have been healed through prayer are discounted as mislead and so the story goes with every important subject in the scriptures.

  Their fear driven life of watching every letter in the bible - thinking the scriptures are going to give them life is a life of distrust that they can't admit even to themselve.

  "I am the Resurrection and the Life; the belivers in Me will live even when he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never, never die, Do you believe this?

  She responded "Yes Lord. I have faith that Thou are the Christ, The Son of God, who was to come into the world."

  Christain teachers would have us limited Christ statements here. They would have you believe that since he was resurrected to heaven He has last power over death and He is limited to their interpretation of the scriptures that teach about the true "Word of God".

  There is nothing new under the sun when Christ walked the earth Martha tried to limit Christ power by stating the her brother would be resurrected in the last day as she had been taught. Yet the "Word of God" reinterpreted her long held views.

  Christ broke the mold because you see it not about legal views of God it is about faith and if you have faith God may do something that break the rules you so badly hang on to; supposing they are going to give you life.
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  M.J.

  Interestingly, the WTS interprets this not as a resurrection, but a creep show!
  
  
  
  
  
  On the day of Jesus’ death, about three o’clock in the afternoon, an earthquake took place, splitting rock-masses open, causing the memorial tombs to be opened, and causing dead bodies to be thrown from their graves.
  
  
  
  
  
  a comparison with the texts concerning the resurrection makes clear that these verses do not describe a resurrection but merely a throwing of bodies out of their tombs, similar to incidents that have taken place in more recent times, as in Ecuador in 1949 and again in Bogotá, Colombia, in 1962, when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor.—El Tiempo, Bogotá, Colombia, July 31, 1962.
  
  
  *** w90 9/1 p. 7 ‘Many Bodies of the Holy Ones Were Raised Up’ ***
  
  First, whoever “the holy ones” were, Matthew did not say they were raised up. He said their bodies, or corpses, were. Second, he did not say these bodies came to life. He said they were raised up, and the Greek verb e·gei´ro, meaning to “raise up,” does not always refer to a resurrection. It can, among other things, also mean to “lift out” from a pit or to “get up” from the ground. (Matthew 12:11; 17:7; Luke 1:69) The upheaval at Jesus’ death opened tombs, tossing lifeless bodies into the open. Such occurrences during earthquakes were reported in the second century C.E. by Greek writer Aelius Aristides and more recently, in 1962, in Colombia.
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  tula

  M.J. Thank you for that information. That was very beneficial. However, it seems to me that the Wbts contradict themselves.

  *** it-1 p. 669 Earthquake ***
  
  On the day of Jesus’ death, about three o’clock in the afternoon, an earthquake took place, splitting rock-masses open, causing the memorial tombs to be opened, and causing dead bodies to be thrown from their graves.

  Now, consider what the NWT bible says

  "and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people."

  wbts has really stretched their license of interpretation, don't you think?

  If wbts feels that they have most accurate translation of Bible, then why would they bastardize the words so badly here?

  look at these word differences: Bible Wbts

  raised up thrown about (raised=methodical thrown=random)

  bodies corpses

  entered into city thrown out by violent tremor

  coming out thrown about

  Holy ones raised up coming out entered city became visible These VERBS show a conscience action.

  Consider this: ( after being raised up or thrown out, whichever you prefer), "THEY BECAME VISIBLE to many people.")

  Many of those "holy ones" had probably turned to dust over the years. There would have to be a transfiguration for them to BECOME visible.

  If the (bodies, or corpses, whichever you prefer) were in a solid form then they would be visible. No need to BECOME visible.

  Even if it were a corpse, it would be in such a state of deterioration as to not be recognizable. So something miraculous must have happened for dust and deteriorated bodies to become visible and recognizable.

  As far as bodies being randomly thrown from the graves, the Bible says it was just the Holy Ones. Not all the dead in that area.

  No mention of any people being killed by this earthquake.
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  JosephMalik

  Tula,

  That is just a play on words. The NIV is one of the few that translates "raised to life." The rest leave it up to the reader. Think of the event in real terms as if you were there. And the Saints could be recently buried not old disintegrated corpses. A priest would be considered a Saint by the Jews. They as a Nations were considered Angels also as were Egyptians that experienced the miracles in Egypt and left with them. Such words would apply to ordinary people as well since the Nations was chosen. You would need much more detail to come to your conclusions. Lacking that then picking the simple and more realistic interpretation makes more sense. We should not violate the texts already shown that prevent alive from being assumed and included in the text as well. We cannot alter such chronology because or an opinion. It is all about death and dead bodies. So I stay with what I know on this one.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Tula,

  I also messed up on this one. I did not notice it to be a parenthentical statement and that the reburial was after the resurrection so this took a bit longer than I thought. But the problems that Pilate had would be the same. Taking a good look as such texts is beneficial. I am glad you brought it to our attention. I also noticed something about arose and resurrection that needs checking. Perhaps another time.

  Joseph
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  M.J.

  A good question would be whether or not the memorial tombs were located IN the city. If they were located outside the city, then how did the persons "enter" the city if they were corpses?
  
  Besides, what would be the point of saying the bodies were "uncovered" from their tombs AND, by the way, the uncovered bodies entered the city in the process? Makes no sense...