144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula 65 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • tula
    tula
    They were resurrected physically and mechanically because of this earthquake but still dead of course. Jewish custom required that they be prepared for re-burial so they went into the holy city and appeared unto many. Who carried them and how is not stated. But it was just hours before a great Sabbath so this had to be done quickly.

    so Joseph, are you saying it is like in the past times when New Orleans flooded and the caskets have come above ground and some even floated into the city streets?

    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection,

    the placement and words of this verse seem out of sync. Jesus does not get buried until further in the chapter. It seems, if you follow the timeline according to placement of the scriptures, that this event occurred just after the moment that Jesus "gave up his spirit." According to scripture, the dead rose before christ was even buried.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Tula,

    Minus the water yes. And because of the brief span of time involved maybe a lot of rules were broken in the process.

    Tula said: the placement and words of this verse seem out of sync. Jesus does not get buried until further in the chapter. It seems, if you follow the timeline according to placement of the scriptures, that this event occurred just after the moment that Jesus "gave up his spirit." According to scripture, the dead rose before christ was even buried.

    Yes. But it is in sync with the earthquake. That is what caused the problem. These bodies had to be buried right away as well. There was a lot going on during those few hours to Sunset. Who knows? Maybe the distraction was enough for Pilate to let Joseph have the body as he requested. He had enough bodies to handle at this point.

    Joseph

  • Leolaia
  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Side note: a great deal of nonsense would be avoided should Bible interpreters resort to the very simple test of retroversion. I.e.: stating clearly, as succinctly as the original text, what they think the text means -- and then comparing it to the original.

    Should I have to tell JosephMalik's scenario (a variant of the WT one) in so many words, I would definitely not use the passive voice of the verb egeiro (to be awakened, to be resurrected); neither would I use exerkhomai ("to get out" of the tombs) and eiserkhomai ("to get into" the city) with the dead as subject (or, for the WT variant, change the subject without making it clear).

    As a rule of thumb: when your interpretation implies that the authors were begging for misunderstanding, it is most likely dead wrong. Most Bible texts, like many others, mean just what they appear to mean. Go figure.

  • yknot
    yknot

    Question?

    I remember many years ago an Episc Father talking about the Jews expecting to wake from the grave when the Messiah came and being buried with stuff kinda like the Egyptians. Could these have been instead of spirit bodies, been earthly bodies like Lazarus? Since the temple curtain tore and there was a big enough earthquake to bust rocks, wouldn't resurrected to life guys/saints/holy ones show fulfillment of the ideology, as testament to Jesus. I am not very knowledgable about this level of stuff as it gives me a headache and I quickly retreat to being a humble and simple follower of the Lord.

    Of course I was about 5 and thought he had to be wrong, since I firmly believed they went with Jesus to heaven and were the beginning of the resurrected 144,000.

    Now, I am wondering, could this be true, what Father Paul said? Matthew after all is suppose to be written to the Jews

    Okay my more intelligent and enlightened Brethern.......let me know what you think..........

    Gracias

    Y

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    JC that epistle of yours is so totally made up by your over active imagination.

    Tula, I think we just have two different concepts of the resurrection here. My concept of what happened to the resurrected bodies is based upon my understanding of the resurrection which include this:

    1. That some sense of entering into the kingdom or heaven could not take place until Satan was removed. That relates to Christ going to prepare a place for them. Thus those heavenly places were not made available until after Satan was kicked out of heaven.

    2. When I think of Lazarus being resurrected, I don't think of it lasting forever and he certainly wasn't resurrected as a spirit. But his literal body came back to life.

    3. Like at the time of the earthquake, literal bodies were resurrected and they came into the city. Perhaps it was a presumption that these were recently buried. But this was not part of the beginning of the "first resurrection" into the spiritual kingdom. Remember the Bible says Christ is the firstborn from the dead. Christ went from being a dead human to being raised as a spirit, so he would precede any humans to spiritual life, even if that spiritual life would not come for them until much, much later after Satan was kicked out of heaven.

    So considering this, I completely exclude the idea that they were resurrected to heaven, especially since they apparently were resurrected in their original bodies and were visible to those in the city. So it is MY OPINION that these resurrections would have been no different than Lazarus being resurrected or any other resurrection done by the prophets in ancient times where people came back to life for a while but then would later die from old age or whatever. They were not granted eternal life at this time.

    At any rate, a key point in a spiritual resurrection is dismissed by the common belief in place that the saints had to wait until Satan was kicked out of heaven and as well it would not have taken place until after holy spirit came at Pentecost. Any comments specifically about your beliefs on those two points?

    JOHN 14: 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU , because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU . 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU , I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be.

    From this it would seem that they would have to wait until he returned after preparing a place for them. This would tend to exclude any type of heavenly resurrection for those who rose from the memorial tombs at the time of the earthquake.

    JCanon

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Tula, also there is the issue of who we would include as "saints."

    I'm wondering if these "saints" are considered those who belong to Christ? That is, specifically those who knew Christ and his teachings and were baptized is the specific reference here for "saints" as opposed to prophets of old or even John the Baptist who was not baptized into Christ?

    If that's the case, then calling them "saints" would limit those resurrected at the time of the earthquake to those that were baptized into Christ and thus those who only recently died since Christ's ministry. Thus there is some basis for presuming these were of those who had only recently died, no more than 3-1/2 years earlier.

    It would certainly make sense in this case that these who knew Christ and who had been "pushing forward" to the survive past Christ's death so they could become into this special covenant would come forth and be able to be anointed by holy spirit.

    Thus my take on this is that some of those who accepted Christ and were baptized who had been sealed into these rock tombs were resurrected. The earthquake afforded the physical opening of the tombs that broke the seals. These bodies usually just were lying in the tombs. To think the earthquake was so violent that it bounced these bodies out of the tombs and they rolled down the hills into Jerusalem where people saw the dead bodies just doesn't work for me. OR inventing some other scenario for them to enter into the city as dead people, when the Bible clearly says they were RAISED, and if alive again, could have entered the city by their own mobility. In fact, the fact that they did enter the city suggests they were alive. Unless there were just lots of people hanging out around the memorial tombs for some reason at this time? I don't think so.

    Furthermore, Joseph Malik thinks these were dead bodies that incidentally were disturbed and disentombed and that custom required their repreparation. In that regard I would thus think that this would have occurred to many bodies in general, not just those of the saints. So why would this miraculous earthquake just disentomb the dead body of saints and any miscellaneous people hanging around the memorial tombs then somehow cause the bodies to come into the city and then those bodies be seen by various people? That scenario compared to the simple reading here that the earthquake caused the stones that sealed these graves to be dislodged and the saints that were raised up to life, then entered into the city as part of this amazing event. Now THAT would have impressed people that Jesus truly was the Christ.

    But this still was not the beginning of the first resurrection which clearly is associated with the end times and occurring close to the second coming and at a time when Satan is removed from heaven. Plus this was a PHYSICAL resurrection back into their own physical bodies.

    Thanks for sharing your views on this, Tula. Interesting topic.

    Finally, while my views are not specifically stated in the Bible they are not contradicted either. However, your view that this was part of the first resurrection to heaven is considered contradicted by scripture, at least by those who believe that the spiritual anointing took on a special aspect only after Pentecost. But as we all know, various ones have their various views and its interesting to share those views, even if in the end some of us agree to disagree.

    Thanks.

    JCanon

  • tula
    tula
    For Paul, the "saints" could not arise before Jesus himself has risen. Yet the gloss fails to bring Matthew fully into line with Pauline theology since the bodily resurrection of the righteous dead still takes place before Jesus.

    Leolaia, I read your piece. This brings up more questions. Perhaps it's because of our idea of death that we "suppose" Jesus had to "sleep" before rising 3 days later. But....could he have actually "transferred" to his splendored body at the moment of death? If so, then the dead could have resurrected 5 minutes later. (figuratively) There would be no conflict. Jesus would have "risen" first and then his entourage. Meanwhile he went through a spiritual during this ordeal the "travel to Hades" to claim the keys.

    Also, I think his entrance into the spirit would not be alone. I feel that he would need his entourage at this time as when he left, he knew he had other work to do "to prepare a place". A big job for just one person. He would need assistance with the execution of future plans.

    Also, I keep thinking about the movies "Crimes of the Heart". The girls were always upset that their mother had hung the kitty cat when she hung herself. After attempting suicide herself, one of the daughters realized why the mother hung the cat. Because she did not want to "die alone."

    We also see this evidenced in Egyptian culture where slaves were killed and sacrificed when the master died to be put in the tomb to go to the netherworld and continue to serve their master into the next life.

    Of course I was about 5 and thought he had to be wrong, since I firmly believed they went with Jesus to heaven and were the beginning of the resurrected 144,000.

    ynot, this is what I think, too. Only I think this was THE event and All 144,000. I am looking for more evidence to support that theory.

    Thanks for the input y'all. Any other continued research would be appreciated.

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    Some say that those a spurious writings, did you find that one in the NNT bible? or KJ? are there footnotes? I always wondered how people could make such mistakes!

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    If that scripture is right, then they were raised up to go where? not to heaven but to their homes in the city. To do what? I believe it was to show others Jesus power! I was just wondering thought! Did Jesus taste death and did he tell someone I believe Mary that his body was not prepared yet, so I can assume at this moment that Jesus did not enter heavens until after he was prepared. Hmm, interesting! so no one entered heaven prior to Jesus entering, so when Mary could not touch him yet perhaps he was not prepared, but Thomas did so maybe he went to heavens. I liked the fact that Jehovah gave Jesus power to raise himself! but still I wonder if this scripture is true just like you! If so that would be the first to be resurrected on earth!

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