Refute anti-gay Bible verses

by cloudblue 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I think Narkissos and Scully hit the nail on the head....they got to the heart of the matter and the real issue that you seem to be confronting, whether you let yourself be judged according to ancient mores and legalism. But since you asked, I did write a thread on Sodom and Gomorrah long ago (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/62942/1.ashx), which is a key proof text in much contemporary writing. In short, the putative "sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah story is not stated clearly in Genesis and evolved in Jewish tradition, from inhospitality to strangers (as it is in the original story) to pride, gluttony, haughtiness, and only later were sexual sins emphasized. Jesus in the synoptic gospels clearly regards the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah as inhospitality. Even where sexual sins were mentioned in the NT, such as in Jude, and in other Jewish works (like Jubilees), the perversion in question seems to be human-angel mingling -- the same sin of the women who married angels before the Flood. I think you have to get to a late work like 2 Enoch for a clear same-sex interpretation of the sin of Sodom.

    On other related matters:

    It is anachronistic to equate biblical concepts with a modern cultural construct like "homosexuality". What is today considered "gay" does not neatly correspond to cultural categories of the ANE. Even today in the Middle East, different kinds of sexual contact between men are evaluated differently. And of course, the biblical prohibitions are only on matters of sexual conduct and do not address the matter of love and companionship. The story of David and Jonathan has been a focal point of exegesis on this subject. Also, the statements in Paul have a clear ethnic/political dimension....Paul is talking about Greco-Roman categories and practices that are alien to Jewish tradition; this is most overt in Romans 1 which is a detailed critique of Gentile society, i.e. the Gentiles focus so much on same-sex relations because God made them that way, and God made them that way because the Gentiles do not recognize God. Finally, Jesus' positive statements about eunuchs in Matthew deserve attention, inasmuch as he cites eunuchs of various kinds (those born that way, those made that way by others, those who make themselves eunuchs) as a positive example worthy of emulation, i.e. in terms of celibacy or not participating in procreation (which was a traditional goal in Jewish life). In contrast, Josephus (who describes eunuchs as having an inner femininity that they transfuse to their body) basically viewed them as the scum of the earth worthy of being cut off, i.e. along the lines of Leviticus. So the attitude of Jesus at least in Matthew is more "liberal" than that of Josephus.

  • James Free
    James Free

    cloudblue, I have bad news for you. The Bible does condemn homosexuality and you can't get around it by attempting to refute a passage as a mistranslation. Even if you could, the Bible also says that ANY sexual activity with another outside of marriage is equally wrong, so that applies to straight people too.

    So you have a choice - leave things as they are and accept the Bible condemns it, or change to suit the Bible.

    There is another way - you call it Bible bashing. You see, if the Bible is not the word of God, then whatever it says is not important and you don't need sleepless night's worrying about something that will never come about anyway.

    Personally, I see no reason why God, if he exists, should have such an aversion to homosexuality. What difference does it make? It is much more likely ths is a man-made rule, put in a man-made book in the name of God. Forget it and move on with your life.

  • Happy Harvester
    Happy Harvester

    Cloudblue, please take a look at this:

    http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

  • Happy Harvester
    Happy Harvester

    Regarding the intolerance of the bible:

    Hell stands as a constant reminder of the essence of Christianity: God is to be obeyed because, in the final analysis, he is bigger and stronger than we are. And in addition, he is incomparably more vicious. -- George Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God
  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    I actually read thru that whole other thread, cause I`ve been wondering about this too. It doesn`t matter to me, I`m not a christian, but the woman I live with is (slightly, ha ha) christian, and she has some gay friends. So I was wondering:

    Narkissos: You convinced me, the words used in the OT, means "male" not "high priest" (the zakar-thing). But what about the things that Paul says? The meaning of "arsenokoeteeh" and "malakee"? Do these words refer to a particular kind of homosexuals (with "malakee" meaning prostitutes and "arsenoketeeh" meaning pervert, or the "old man - young boy"-relationships common in Greece back then, with malakee referring to the young boy etc.) ? Or is it likely that they refer to any kind of homosexual act? What about the words not being used? Weren`t there other words that would fit better, if he wanted to condemn all kinds of male+male-sexual acts? What about "pederaiston"? That word meant (back then) something closer to our modern perception of a "regular gay guy", right?

  • jgnat
  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hello HR

    As Leolaia pointed out above (and I tried to make approximately the same point in the other thread) there is nothing in the Ancient world really like 'our modern perception of a "regular gay guy"', Ancient lexica, of necessity, reflect ancient social structures and values which do not exactly superpose with the modern ones. That's one limit of "functional equivalence" translation -- when the source and target languages belong to two different worlds. "Slaves" are not "employees," "Caesar" is not a democratically elected "government," "marriage" is not an egalitarian institution resting on free consent as we understand it, "repudiation" is not "divorce," "pederasty" is not a sexual "identity" (let alone "community") and it's generally not egalitarian either. This imo confirms the absurdity of trying to draw ready recipes for living today from ancient texts. Mere "obedience" is impossible because we are bound to invent new rules, even through interpretation.

    About arsenokoitai and malakoi you may have missed an interesting recent thread:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/143256/1.ashx

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Narkissos:

    Thanks. I was thinking some of the same things after I posted that last post. On this issue, now and then, here and there, our culture and society vs. their culture and society is basically incomparable. Male-male-sex in Europe 2007 can`t be compared to male-male-sex in the middle east or Greece 2000 years ago.

    On a sidenote: There are still cultures (in Africa, for instance) in which male-male-sex is common (and accepted) - and in which the homo vs. hetero - distinction is either not present, or at least completely different than in our European (and American) culture. I don`t know, maybe in some weird way, it`s not even considered sex ? Lol, it really is hard for me, as a European, to free myself from the way we view this. And I think this might be why (our European...) christianity for 2000 years has condemned the male-male-thing.

    By the way, here`s an experiment to all you guys, that I think is relevant to this: Why is it that we guys (often) don`t consider two women having sex (in a porno, for instance) as being as bad as two guys doing it? Some of us are even turned on by seeing two women going at it! - while at the same time, seeing two men do it would make a lot of us nauseus! Why is that? Could it be that we don`t really consider "lesbianism" as being as bad as male-male-sex? Actually, maybe we don`t even consider two women having sex as lesbians! Maybe we think of them as just...playing, lol !? And maybe this is a bit more how homosexuality (male-male) was viewed in the middle east and Greece 2000 years ago?

    Further, to the one who started this thread: Be gay with a good conscience, even if you`re christian. There is nothing in the Bible condemning your homosexuality anno 2007 A.D. In short, the passages talking about those things (and a lot of other things too) are not relevant to how you conduct yourself.

  • Vernon Williams
    Vernon Williams

    Those that hold Jesus of Nazereth as a special person have, always, held human sexuality to be confined within the bond of husband and wife. This position has been the same for two thousand years. The ability to comply with this attitude is dependent upon our personal relationship with the Father through a personal relationship with the Son and acknowledges the place of the Holy Spirit in the internal change that occurs post-relationship.

    Homosexuality is just one of a myriad of sexual practices that is non-comforming to the position of the historic community of Christians.

    V

  • truthseeker

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