Despite what christians want to think the bible is very pro-death.
Pro-life arguments
by Skimmer 109 Replies latest jw friends
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fifi40
BA...........If I can just correct you........in your opinion God is the final arbiter of what is right and wrong........in your opinion you are educating those who jump to wrong conclusions.........your seem to be missing this point that this is your opinion based on the same knowledge available to us all and yet some choose not to have the same opinion as you.
I actually question whether God is moral at all.........
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Paralipomenon
Unfortunately this topic tries to push people into one camp or another. Your opinion is either black or white and there's nothing in between.
Pro-choice is largely identified as a feminist issue. In areas that abortions are readily available, the women are generally more apt to identify themselves as anti-abortion. In areas where it is illegal there is a larger number of women that will identify as pro-choice.
It's not so much about being for abortions, but rather fighting for a perceived loss of rights. The sad truth is that there are women that use abortions as a form of birth control. If there's an "oops" then it's okay, just go to the clinic.
My opinion s that this is a very irresponsible practice that makes pro-choice look like pro-abortion. But from a woman's point of view, if they were raped or find the baby is going to be mentally or physically disadvantaged it is comfortable to know that the option is there for them to decide for themselves. Sadly though, it's a tough stance to uphold. If they make abortions situational then those that want one for other reasons may lie to get it. That could potentially mean wrongfully accusing a man of rape to secure an abortion. If they fight for responsibility, they may end up closing a door that down the road they may want to use for responsible reasons.
It's a huge slippery slope. On the pro-life side, many chose this from bible standards. Sadly a young girl that gets pregnant would be fearful of the religious repercussions of the fornication that she may feel that the only choice is to "erase" the evidence. Girls being tossed out of their parents homes for getting pregnant is all too common, rather ironic for someone preaching that human life is sacred. So long as they are approved by God I guess, otherwise screw 'em, they're sinners.
Really, the whole issue is grey, but neither side is willing to admit it. It is those that abuse the issue on either side of the argument that split the issue.
Personally I think that the moment that a man and a woman have consensual sex, the resulting life is human. If they do not wish to get pregnant, there are a host of methods to avoid getting pregnant. To me, abortion is not a responsible form of birth control. I think there are valid reasons to get an abortion, but I am not a moral police officer. I can be disappointed in those that take such a light view of pregnancy, but that's as far as my advocacy goes. I left telling other people how to live their lives when I left the witnesses. -
5go
Really, the whole issue is grey, but neither side is willing to admit it. It is those that abuse the issue on either side of the argument that split the issue.
What are you talking a lot of pro-choicer don't like abortions.
Bill Clinton said it best "I want abortions safe, legal, and rare"
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SixofNine
Quote: "Personally I think that the moment that a man and a woman have consensual sex, the resulting life is human."
Sheesh, you'd think you'd wait to make that judgment call until the little tadpole drops it's tail ;)
In my estimation, people get worked up over their firmly held beliefs and what they think of as a principle, but almost NO ONE really gets worked up over a tiny blob of cells.
The same person who would barely blink at a messy discharge a few days after a home pregnancy test showed up blue (or may even feel relief), might well spiral into genuine depression at having a "miscarriage" eight months later; after a crib has been bought, sex has been determined, names have been chosen, rooms have been painted, and dreams have been dreamed. Even then, the life most affected at that point in time, is the mother's.
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lola28
My sister has afriend who is 14, her mom called a few weeks ago and told my mother that she is pregnant, she does not want her daughter to have this baby, tell me what should this young girl do? Shes a freshman in high school, her mother will not help her raise this kid and the father wont be around to help. Does she keep it and hope that things work out, put it up for adoption? (btw anyone know who many kids are in oster care in the US?) or have an abortion?
Lola
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eclipse
That's a really tough situation for your sister's friend, lola.
She might want to find a support group of women who have been through that experience.
There are probably a few online ones.
Some have aborted because of getting pregnant at a young age, and still felt that it was the best decision they made.
One friend of mine, carried her daughter to term (her baby was conceived by rape and she was a virgin),
and she put her baby up for adoption.
She gets updates on her daughter every few years. (This is not in the US)
If that young girl spoke to the different women who made either decisions and got their opinions,
it might help her decide which decision is the best for her.
No one knows how difficult that choice must feel like, unless they have been there.
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Abaddon
BA
Your questions are easily answered:
Actually you didn't answer one of my questions; I even numbered them to make it easy (past experience ). So, if they're easy to answer, why not answer them BA?
As you seem so happy having a conversation with yourself I see no reason why you shouldn't continue, but hell, it's lunch time so having pointed out your failure to answer any of the questions asked I'll react to some of your post.
I stated that this debate is impossible to reach agreement on as it involves two different paradigms, and you prove this nicely.
You seem to suggest that the Bible prohibits abortion. As previously stated this is false. Please prove the Bible prohibts abortion or stop making this false claim.
You also totally fail to prove why your faith-based beliefs should be forced on other people against their will.
You also obviously feel that YOUR interpretation of what god wants is by definiton correct; remember, some people would condemn others for restricting the freedom of spermatozoa! Like I asked (and you ignored), why are you right and they wrong?
Religious totalitarianism as seen in Iran, as behind the Taliban, and as expressed by some people from comparatively civilised countries, wherein they hold their beliefs worthy of imposition on others, is somehing that cannot be tolerated in secular society.
If you want to live in a state where religous totalitarianism guides the legislature I suggest Iran or the Vatican City. At a streach, Kansas
Otherwise embrace the tolerance with which your beliefs are tolerated. No one will EVER force you to have an abortion! Extend others the same tolerance
Abaddon- who thinks signature lines like BA uses are pompous beyond belief
Emy
Emy, do I really have to define personality for you? Or are you just being argumentative? To make it clear (although I believe it is) I am not using personality as in the phrase 'he has no personality' when applied to a dull or uninteresting person. I am using it to mean an intelligent individual.
Remember, I am defending your right to an opinion, I am cherishing your right to express that opinion, and am merely asking that you do the same.
The whole point is that unless you can prove my opinion is based on false facts, I am as entitled to it as you are to yours. We are each entilted to our own opinion, we have to share facts.
Glad you pointed out that "It's a gift" I wouldn't have recognized it otherwise.
Well, yes, take a joke the wrong way, by all means. You use 'baby' to describe something with less brains than a rabbit, so playing with words is very tempting for everyone involved, eh?
BTW, "moral equivalency" is a term used to indicate that there is no right or wrong. They have become interchangable. Convicted killers are deserving of death, unborn babies deserve a chance to live. Right and wrong is clear and it is not interchangable. Gifted semantics is not needed.
To you, something with less neurons that a sparrow is equivalent to a new born baby, because it has human DNA and might (and I am just talking about the high chnces of early term pregnancies not reaching full term) one day be born.
I think new born babies and late term fetuses are worth far more than something with a nervous system smaller than what you get in your tissue when you blow your nose. I have to put it in such graphic terms to deal with the 'babification' of embryos and blastocysts. I see assigning human equivalancy to early term pregnancies is not supported by the facts, in fact believe it is only supportabe by sentimetalism and supersticion, neither of hich are a goodbasis for deciding what is right or wrong.
If potential is so important, what about the lost potential of babies who are actually born in disadvantaged situatuions?
You're prefectly entitled to be inconsistent, and to hold an pinion that I think is invalid, but why should I adopt your opinion when you've not shown the facts mine are based on are false and when yours is inconsistently applied?
Mary
5go and Sixofnine got there first, but you are right, there is such scripture (Exodus 21:22), but that's NOT an abortion, nor is the Hebrew or Aramaic word for 'abortion' used any where in the Bible (although there is one and abortion was practised in antiquity). The law is about compensating a husband for a fight causing his wife to give birth prematurely or punishing the fighters for killing or injuring a wanted child inutero. It's about property.
Abortion WAS known, and there is NO mention of any protection for UNWANTED 'children' inutero.
If there was a law like "And if a woman of the House of Israel falls pregnant but causes her pregnancy to end you are to take life for life, and if her pregnacy is brought to an end by another at the woman's instigation, then both must die." then you could reasonably laim the Bible prohibited abortion.
It doesn't so no on can.
Paralipomenon
You mention black and white;
If they do not wish to get pregnant, there are a host of methods to avoid getting pregnant.
.. and it ISN'T that black or white. Loads of people using the pill or condoms get pregnant every year. Realise that 97% effective is 3% useless, and that even 99.3% effective is still 0.7% useless and that of a thousand couples using a 99.3% effective contraceptive, seven will get pregnant. I was with a girl where both a condom and the morning after pill failed.
Now, should she change her entire life, leave University, because of a pregnancy so early on there is no personality extinguished when it is terminated? If she wouldn't do it for a rabbit, why should she do it for an 8-week embryo?
But for me contraceptive dilegence is not the point (although people who use abortion as a alternative to contraception are uneducated idiots). The point is that claims of equivalancy of an early term fetus to a adult human or new born are not supported by any secular or scientific argument in any meaningful fashion other than gross genetic inheritance.
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Chalam
A picture is worth a thousand words.
I think that is the pro life argument in a nutshell.
Blessings,
Stephen
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BurnTheShips
There is your "progress." Right to life is the cause of our time, and we will win. There will be justice.
BTS