I've reached a turning point in my life (page 3)

oompa

B...I have not made it to the studying philosphy yet so dont really know what deism is. As a bornin I have had doubts for over thirty years and have realized I am non-religious by nature, so you can imagine how blessed I was to be born in this faith! I do see incredible design in all that is around us and have always been amazed by it. Having a vegetible garden would be enough to convince me somebody really knew his $hit. But the universe....wow. So I am settling in on being some form of Agnostic. I will study up on the deism thing....oompa

MadTiger

Divesting yourself of religious trappings is the first step to actual spirituality.

Check your PMs for a science-based article you will appreciate.

B_Deserter

"Why couldn't the universe be eternal? Not this particular one we're in now, but everything outside of it (if there is anything outside of it). Cause and effect still applies - an earlier version of the universe causes the next version and so on, right up to us."

Yes, but then you have an unending chain of universes that had to be there to begin with. You're just pushing the cause further back in the past. My point is that I cannot accept that all this energy in the universe has simply always been here. There is no more proof in that statement than there is in saying that it appeared from nothing. I freely admit that this is mere speculation on my part, and I won't discount the possibility that maybe all the energy in the universe HAS always been here. Yes, I'm probably the most non-committal Deist ever.

R.Crusoe

As you wonder about the source of all energy and matter which you infer are the same stuff in different forms, I wonder about the existence of space and whether space is another form of stuff!

Space is needed for energy and matter to exist. If space does not exist how can anything be? Even a vacuum needs a space for its void to exist. It is difficult to define space. If there was no matter and energy (as we know them) then we may consider that a vacuumed void would exist with no dimensions since it would go on to infinity in all directions. The human brain is only able to imagine quantiafiable things as far as I am aware and so such a thing is beyond our comprehension even though we know it is there. The existence of an infinite vacuum is a space of infinite dimension and if the void were not there it is unimaginable as to what might take its place. The existence of this void is what permits the existence of matter and energy and must have existed before them unless it came into effect simultaneously somehow or they are all part of the same. If this is true then it seems impossible for space/energy/matter not to exist or at least within the boundaries of human comprehension, which we must all agree is very limited when compared with what we are aware does exist!

AllTimeJeff

I believe that (for lack of a better word) spirituality is important. We all need ethics. Humans do run on that, and that can't be denied. WHY these things are the way they are is something that has always been claimed as the perview of religion. Unfotunately, while people "buy in" to religion at times for their own personal needs and interests, it still is fascinating that people don't examine the other end of the stick that they pick up; that is, the consequences of giving a majority voice to what amounts to anecdotal evidence of "god" and the superstitious fear that fuels it. The religous leaders in turn, use this "majority" to argue for their religous beliefs (and power) in politics. It is a fact that religion fuels a lack of ethics and a loss of personal freedom and dignity. (something those who were once JW's can attest to very well)

But, any student of history will tell you that this is how its always been. We just have our 2.1 version of this in the 21st century. It would be nice in the future to see a more balanced view of religion, and the accompanying honesty of thought. I certainly am glad to see that people can express themselves. Freeness of speech is something few if any of the worlds major religions ever allowed. (ditto equal rights to women)

I will point out to the thiests who "argued" to "listen" for god, you all basically suggested we stick our ear in a sea shell to listen for the ocean. I know that you mean well, but seriously, have you considered all the good people who search for god and who never found him? To say only good and righteous people can "get" god is to feed the exclusive and divisive role that religion has always played. It doesn't help, it isn't tangible, it isn't practical, and it only feeds superstitous myths that we are trying to shed as a planet.

The biggest problems with "god" is that he is still silent, and he still hasn't done a thing about the problems on this planet. If it makes you feel better to "see" god in a mountain or a sunset to help you answer "why" and it gives you peace, then you have answered your own questions about how honest you are with yourself. That is interpretation to make one feel better, much like a child who assigns a name and personality traits to their favorite doll, all for their own comfort. Until we outgrow our "Winnie the Pooh" that is religion, we will still assign morality and ethics to what amounts to an imaginary doll. Just because we cling to it and it makes us feel better doesn't mean it exists, anymore then Christopher Robin, Pooh, and Eor exist.

KW13

Let me Clarify that i am not an atheist but i am happy to see you've reached a point in your life where you can make a huge decision like this and enjoy the freedom of it, honestly we've earned that right! Congratulations :)

serotonin_wraith

Yes, but then you have an unending chain of universes that had to be there to begin with. You're just pushing the cause further back in the past. My point is that I cannot accept that all this energy in the universe has simply always been here.

I think we differ in that you seem to be demanding a first cause, and I see the past as eternal. There may be no first cause, just like I don't think there'll be a final event. So if the future goes on forever, why not the past?

The problem in saying there was some other kind of power, or god, or whatever to start the universes off, is that that now has to be the eternal component. There's no evidence for that thing, but we see the universe everywhere. We already know it exists.

blueviceroy

sigh ,,, I hate having to stoop to the use of the word "god" in description of the energy that causes consiousness .I am in no way a proponent of listening to seashells for comfort of the existence of the sea.

I am a realist, what I propose as a simple understanding and insight as to the true nature of a human is easily misconstrued into a set belief of a religious nature

The thing I speak of is inherent in EACH and every human being on the planet, it is the key to relieving oneself of a conditioned existence and experiencing life as it is without the cumbersome and wieldy need or puzzling theological conundrum that is the question "Why are we here"

The answer is very simple and unique to the individual , but is obtained in a very simple and identical way.

Coming into contact with ones own true nature reveals the truth instantly, the truth that is felt in a place that meets you 100% , in the place where there are no more questions , in the place where honesty is absolute.

It cannot be conceptualized or described or taken back to show others ,it can only be pointed at . It is impossible to remember or possess it can only be experienced

So I have no doubt as to why i am here or what my purpose is . It certainly is not to change anyone.

Shazard

Well you make logical error in your thinking process. You admit that 1st law of thermodinamics is law of this Universe, and still you want to apply the law to this "stuff" outside this Universe, which is not obviously true! So what's wrong to have uncaused cause for Universe? The correct logic would be "Everything what had begining, had cause of this begining". But it does not apply to objects which does not have begining. You just want some object without begining which you don't like for philosophical reasons to substitute with more comforting thing without begining which complains to your expectations... why?

BurnTheShips

Hi B, regarding th chicken/egg thing you wrote

My question is: where did THAT thing come from? Something had to have caused it. No matter what explanation anybody can come up with, it requires pre-existing elements in order to work.

I just wanted to point out that Time is a property of the Universe we observe and was "created" along with it. And we look at cause and effect in the flow of time. This way of looking at things breaks down if Time does not exist. In other words, without Time, is there a before and after? Causality breaks down.

Oh and BTW, I love the "Last Question". Tell me, can entropy be reversed?

BurnTheShips (oh oh there's entropy again)

I've reached a turning point in my life

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