For the ladies. Do you think that when you..... (page 21)

AllTimeJeff

This was a great thread. I have enjoyed the debate and responses, even the ignorant ones....

I'll start with a personal experience. My ex, who put the odd in modesty, was once singled out by a newly baptized brother while I was an elder. He wanted me to talk to her because he felt her clothing was too "tight" and thus he was "distracted". Short of dressing her like Casper the Friendly Ghost, I really couldn't have dressed her less provacatively. HE was the one with the problem. It wouldn't have mattered how other "sisters" dressed.

That about sums up how I feel on this topic. From your first post Ness, I interpreted it to mean that you see a double standard. (i.e. A woman shouldn't complain about a man staring if she chooses to dress in a way that is "provocative".) I disagree. Once again, a woman needs a mans approval to dress and then approval to express themselves if they don't like the way a man looks at them.

A woman wants to show cleavage and yet be treated as an equal. And this is offensive... how?

I think a woman should be free to dress however they individually feel comfortable and then tell a man whatever the hell she wants!

Let me tell you why this is somewhat of a sexist topic to begin with: Men NEVER have to deal with this. Do men have to deal with people questioning what they wear? No. Do they get away with saying almost whatever they want? (excluding Don Imus, et al) Usually....

While acknowledging the differences between men and women, I am a guy who is looking (and working) for a world where we are just people with different parts! (isn't it a fact thats what we are?) If a woman shows cleavage in her outfit choice, yeah I notice. I don't know why she has cleavage showing and I don't care! That is her business. I ALWAYS engage women for who they are, not what they wear. To do otherwise means Y O U have the problem. You are setting up your own rule (i.e. I am a guy and won't respect you unless I can't see any part of your breasts.) If that is your thing, that is YOUR thing. It shouldn't be a womans problem anymore.

Guys, considering that for thousands of years that women had to do and dress how the (male) powers that be wanted, (and except for the western world, this lamentable situation still exists for hundreds of millions of women,) can we get off the "I can't think because you dress to sexy" train? What kind of knuckle dragging Neanderthal feels this way? Ridiculous! This premise is wrong where it stands....

Edited for paranthetical thought. I have tons of them....

Merry Magdalene

Not that it matters, but I just felt like saying, I feel a certain appreciation for what coolhandluke has been saying as well as the way it has been said. Wanderlustguy is totally cracking me up. And everyone's input on this fascinates me, not only what they say but how they are saying it. I wonder how/when it will end...

~Merry

wanderlustguy

I like everyone, too, Merry.

Get your hand off my butt. I'm not that kind of girl.

Merry Magdalene

Stop, stop, I can't breathe!!!

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scoundrel!

...and that's not my hand...

~Merry

coolhandluke

Not that it matters, but I just felt like saying, I feel a certain appreciation for what coolhandluke has been saying as well as the way it has been said

thank you. that means a lot. i really appreciated your argument and the way it was worded as well. the way you raise your daughter is admirable in that it is organic progress from the way in which you were raised. that is emotional evolution and i praise you for it.

Merry Magdalene

I hope that we are all growing and grabbing at every chance for positive change and self-improvement, however we started, and I like to think we are. Thank you for your kind words and praise, CHL.

I think it is great we can have this kind of discussion from every kind of viewpoint.Cheers to everyone! You all make me think harder and look deeper, and I like that.

~M.

wanderlustguy

Everyone has opinions, and they are also subject to change even for different people. The fact that CHL and SS can disagree without being nasty or disagreeable, as well as everyone else being the same way, speaks to the character of the people here.

Besides...where else are you gonna see a black dude in a kilt? Badass.

sweetstuff

All I'm saying is that when someone wears suggestive clothing people will think a certain way and form certain opinions. If I had tattoos on my face, they'd do the same.

And at the end of the day, anyone who would judge you a lesser person for it, isn't worth your time CoolHand, that's my point. Question is, do we fight the flow, or do we run with it, add to the problem or buck it? Do we raise children who are free thinkers who will not be told what to do, and who they are, or impress on young innocent minds the need to conform from their natural spirit into an "acceptable" shell of their former selfs? As a mother, that is not even an option for me, my daughters will grow up to be who they are meant to be, free from me telling them to conform to anyone's ideal of how a woman should behave, including mine.

To teach my two girls that they should conform to society's hypocritical rules on how women should behave, dress, etc., makes me cringe to the very core. Too many of us have had our young spirit damaged and in some cases, killed by such attitudes in general. Think about it in the context of those raised as witnesses, how many women were taught that being sexual creatures and men for that matter as well, was a immoral, bad, and sinful thing. How much self-guilt was inflicted by stupid rules meant to impose someone else's idea of modesty and decorum? How can we work towards equality as human beings if we continue the same negative patterns and associations and never progress beyond them??

In many indigenous tribes, over the world, nudity is something everyday and normal, without sexual connotations attached. We should try to learn from these cultures and progress towards the point where we dont' judge based on body parts and looks and unless we actively choose to say 'screw that' (feel free to insert another word instead of screw) attitude, we are only part of the problem and not part of the solution.

coolhandluke

I'd agree with you. But the world is not an enlightened place. I would love it if people would just be themselves. Then I wouldn't have to have a degree in psychology to know what it was they were really thinking or really meant.

Fawk. We are so off the subject. Here is the bottom line. I would love to exist in utopia. Then you'd be free to walk down the street butt assed naked and I'd benefit by getting to see your bits before even having a conversation. And then you could tell how much I liked your bits by the prominent or not so prominent display of my bits. No one would judge. That would be real nice. It would be even nicer to change the world to that. But that sh*t aint the reality.

The truth is, I'm a man. I look at boobs. I like em. They are fan-freaking-tastic. The more out of their shirt that they are, the more I have to fight the urge to stare at them. That is removing all things about societal ills and how we raise our kids. I have big arms. If I wear a shirt two sizes two small, they are more pronounced. Chicks look at them. Some lick their lips. Who wouldn't? They are nice arms. And you my dear Sweetstuff have an unbelieveable rack. No political correctness. If you wear a burlap bag I might look. But if you wear a boobie shirt, I'm definitely going to notice. Judgements aside for your character, I'm going to notice. And to be honest, I will probably wanna touch em. And you, you will want to touch my arms.

For the ladies. Do you think that when you.....

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