JW say df/shunning is Scriptural...How do we get around those Scriptures?

oompa

Paul of course is the mainstay of this, and I really like saying "hey lets stick to what Jesus taught" but even he condemned the Pharacees and others in a considerably judgemental manner. So what to say to my elder/dad who won't speak to my df son? Like when Paul says to not eat with them, don't say a greeting to them etc....how do we get around that? I say fluck it..I'll take my chances, but is there something better? I would really appreciate some help on this and if it has been talked about a bunch, please forgive me and direct me to some threads....I really am still a newbie, and forgot that we have a search feature now..........thanks guys.......oompa

AlmostAtheist

I've always thought 2 Corinithians 2:5-7 was interesting in this regard: "Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. 6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad."

The JW's use this as a "reinstatement" example. Paul had earlier written about a man that needed to be "disfellowshipped", and here he is now "reinstating" him.

Note, though that the "rebuke" was only given by the "majority". Did some minority of the congregation not participate in shunning this man? How else could this verse be understood? If so, why wasn't that minority disfellowshipped, as they would be today?

In addition, in all of these verses, the word "unrepentant" doesn't come up. "Stop mixing in company with anyone called a brother that IS a fornicator, IS an adulterer, etc". It's always about what the person is doing, not about what they WERE doing. And of course, there is absolutely no reference to any sort of judicial arrangement or announcement to officially designate people as "disfellowshipped" or "reinstated".

Their allegedly scriptural position just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The verses they use make much more sense when viewed as advice, to be taken or not, by individual members of the congregation. Instead of a Talmudic law to be followed or face retribution.

BTW, in poking about at the Watchtower site just now, I found this little gem: "By also avoiding persons who have deliberately disassociated themselves, Christians are protected from possible critical, unappreciative, or even apostate views. — Hebrews 12:15, 16."

JW's are so fragile that they need to be protected from "critical" and even "unappreciative" views! Poor little spiritual waifs! *gag*

Dave

LtCmd.Lore

So what to say to my elder/dad who won't speak to my df son? Like when Paul says to not eat with them, don't say a greeting to them etc....how do we get around that?

Depends. He probably couldn't care less what the Bible says. He'll shun his son because the society says so.

But here's what their Bible says about it:

(1 Corinthians 5:9-13) 9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."

Note qualifier: "Anyone called a brother." Most translations I've seen phrase this: "Anyone who calls himself a brother." (evidence-1, 2 , 3 -iffy , 4 )

But either way: If you leave, then you are not called a brother, and you no longer call yourself a brother. When they no longer refer to you as "Brother Oompa" then this scripture doesn't apply to you.

Also, note what Paul said after that: For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."

They are not supposed to judge those on the outside, that's up to Yahweh, or Jesus or somebody. That should include disassociated people!

Basically, if you don't claim to be a witness, then this scripture is not about you.

Lore - W.W.S.D?

AlmostAtheist

Oh Lore, that is good stuff! Very nice. And of course, who doesn't love the irony of two atheists being the first two replies on a Bible thread? :-P

(OK, it's not a "Bible" thread per se....)

Dave

LtCmd.Lore

And of course, who doesn't love the irony of two atheists being the first two replies on a Bible thread?

Gotta love it!

Happy Harvester

There's no good reason for shunning a child. Is your son still a teen-ager? It is just cruel to do it, no matter what, but to do that to a kid is disgusting. I like the scripture that Dave gave you. Maybe get a few tee-shirts with it emblazoned and only wear them around your dad.

LtCmd.Lore

Note, though that the "rebuke" was only given by the "majority" . Did some minority of the congregation not participate in shunning this man? How else could this verse be understood? If so, why wasn't that minority disfellowshipped, as they would be today?

ooh, I like that!

So REQUIRED shunning is completely unscriptural.

Quick point, Since the JWs make such a big deal about "The word 'Trinity' isn't even in the Bible!" :

Neither is the word "Disfellowship" or "Disassociate".

Lore - W.W.S.D?

oompa

So far I already can not thank you enough for these points all.

But Lore - W.W.S.D? ............ I THINK I LOVE YOU!!!! How did I never see or understand any of this....reading a bible without being brainwashed from childbirth must be a surreal experience.....BTW, every faith brainwashes from birth pretty much....at least my kids nor me were strapping bombs to ourselves to be martyrs and get 70 virgins, although I do wish 70 virgins had maybe been my life's goal! Thank you guys sooooo much.....and bring it on!....oompa

lonelysheep

There are plenty of scriptures to pick apart out of the bible, but that doesn't mean we need to do them, does it?! There is nothing natural about forcing oneself to shun those they love (and those who love them)!!!!!!

And of course, who doesn't love the irony of two atheists being the first two replies on a Bible thread? :-P

LOL

oompa

Lonelysheepherder:
There are plenty of scriptures to pick apart out of the bible, but that doesn't mean we need to do them, does it?! There is nothing natural about forcing oneself to shun those they love (and those who love them)!!!!!!
And of course, who doesn't love the irony of two atheists being the first two replies on a Bible thread? :-P
LOL

I agree sooo much with everything you posted. Just wanted you to know that especially since I agree with your red print so much, and treat my df's son like a very loved son, I still need scriptual AMMO for those those who dont that should......thanks....oompa

JW say df/shunning is Scriptural...How do we get around those Scriptures?

Share this