.at least my kids nor me were strapping bombs to ourselves to be martyrs and get 70 virgins, although I do wish 70 virgins had maybe been my life's goal!
LOL!
If you're gonna dream, dream big, right?
JW say df/shunning is Scriptural...How do we get around those Scriptures?
by oompa 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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LtCmd.Lore
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Magick
I found it interesting how this Prosiding Overseer danced around the definition of "disfellowshipping."
He said, "disfellowshipping is a congregational matter and not a family matter and that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word ‘shunning’".
and
He talks positively about disfellowshipping saying that “for every six or ten people you bring on here that have bad experiences [with disfellowshipping] I can bring a hundred people that have been disfellowshipped … who will say it is the best thing that happened in their life”.
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Magick
If you watch that video, you may see that the prosiding overseer (who's been an elder for 30 years) says it's ok to say "hi" or "hello" to a disfellowshipped person and/or talk about non-congregational stuff to a relative. He says that the quote from the 1950's watchtower publication was the work of "apostates" but the one from 1981 is ok. ...and that the society doesn't "shun" just DIS-Fellowships or (stops fellowshipping)
so here's a quote from a 1988 Watchtower...(which is less apostate than the 1981 watchtower)
w88 4/15 p. 28 Discipline That Can Yield Peaceable Fruit
WhatAboutRelatives?
11
God certainly realizes that carrying out his righteous laws about cutting off wrongdoers often involves and affects relatives. As mentioned above, when an Israelite wrongdoer was executed, no more family association was possible. In fact, if a son was a drunkard and a glutton, his parents were to bring him before the judges, and if he was unrepentant, the parents were to share in the just executing of him, ‘to clear away what is bad from the midst of Israel.’ (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) You can appreciate that this would not have been easy for them. Imagine, too, how the wrongdoer’s brothers, sisters, or grandparents felt. Yet, their putting loyalty to their righteous God before family affection could be lifesaving for them.13
Cutting off from the Christian congregation does not involve immediate death, so family ties continue. Thus, a man who is disfellowshipped or who disassociates himself may still live at home with his Christian wife and faithful children. Respect for God’s judgments and the congregation’s action will move the wife and children to recognize that by his course, he altered the spiritual bond that existed between them. Yet, since his being disfellowshipped does not end their blood ties or marriage relationship, normal family affections and dealings can continue.
14
The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man."—1 Corinthians 5:11.15
Understandably, this may be difficult because of emotions and family ties, such as grandparents’ love for their grandchildren. Yet, this is a test of loyalty to God, as stated by the sister quoted on page 26. Anyone who is feeling the sadness and pain that the disfellowshipped relative has thus caused may find comfort and be encouraged by the example set by some of Korah’s relatives.—Psalm 84:10-12.
[Footnotes]
John here used khai´ro, which was a greeting like "good day" or "hello." (Acts 15:23; Matthew 28:9) He did not use a·spa´zo·mai (as in verse 13), which means "to enfold in the arms, thus to greet, to welcome" and may have implied a very warm greeting, even with an embrace. (Luke 10:4; 11:43; Acts 20:1, 37; 1 Thessalonians 5:26) So the direction at 2 John 11 could well mean not to say even "hello" to such ones.—See TheWatchtower of July 15, 1985, page 31.
For a discussion of a relative’s being disfellowshipped, see TheWatchtower of September 15, 1981, pages 26-31.
Though various individuals have brought suit, no court has rendered a judgment against Jehovah’s Witnesses over their Bible-based practice of shunning.*
819 F.2d 875 (9th Cir. 1987).
*Jehovah's Witnesses THEMSELVES have written that they practice shunning.
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Leolaia
The statement in 2 John can only be understood within the social context of first-century intinerantism; the author was on the receiving end of this kind of shunning as well, see his complaints in 3 John.
In depth discussion here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/142548/2560739/post.ashx#2560739
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Magick
w81 9/15 pp. 26-31 disfellowshipping-how to view it
DISFELLOWSHIPED
RELATIVESNOTLIVINGATHOME18
The second situation that we need to consider is that involving a disfellowshiped or disassociated relative who is not in the immediate family circle or living at one’s home. Such a person is still related by blood or marriage, and so there may be some limited need to care for necessary family matters. Nonetheless, it is not as if he were living in the same home where contact and conversation could not be avoided. We should keep clearly in mind the Bible’s inspired direction: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person . . . , not even eating with such a man."—1 Cor. 5:11.
19
Consequently, Christians related to such a disfellowshiped person living outside the home should strive to avoid needless association, even keeping business dealings to a minimum. The reasonableness of this course becomes apparent from reports of what has occurred where relatives have taken the mistaken view, ‘Though he is disfellowshiped, we are related and so can treat him the same as before.’ From one area comes this:"One person who was disfellowshiped was related to about one third of the congregation. All of his relations continued to associate with him."
And a highly respected Christian elder writes:
"In our area some disfellowshiped ones with large families have been met, as they enter the lobby of the Kingdom Hall, with a fanfare of backslapping and handshaking (even though the disfellowshiped one was known by them to be still living immorally). I feel a deep concern that those who have been disfellowshiped need to see that their course is hated by Jehovah and by his people and that they should feel a real need to become genuinely repentant. What will help these disfellowshiped ones to change when they are continually greeted by all in their large families who know of their practices?"
20
There must have been congregations in the first century where many were related. But when someone was disfellowshiped, were all the relatives to carry on as normal as long as they did not discuss Scriptural matters with the disfellowshiped person? No. Otherwise the congregation would not really be applying the command: "Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."—1 Cor. 5:13.
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Great care needs to be exercised that a person’s situation as a disfellowshiped sinner is neither overlooked nor minimized. As the sons of Korah well demonstrated, our chief loyalty must be to Jehovah and his theocratic arrangement. We can be sure that when we uphold his standards and prefer association with his organized people, rather than with wrongdoers, we will have his protection and blessing.—Ps. 84:10-12.SOCIAL
GATHERINGSANDDISFELLOWSHIPEDRELATIVES22
Normally, relatives are often together at meals, picnics, family reunions or other social gatherings. But when someone has unrepentantly pursued sin and has had to be disfellowshiped, he may cause difficulties for his Christian relatives in regard to such gatherings. While they realize that they are still related to him, they do not want to ignore Paul’s advice that faithful Christians should "quit mixing in company" with an expelled sinner.
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There is no point in looking for some rule as to family members being at gatherings where a disfellowshiped relative might be present. This would be something for those concerned to resolve, in keeping with Paul’s counsel. (1 Cor. 5:11) And yet it should be appreciated that if a disfellowshiped person is going to be at a gathering to which nonrelative Witnesses are invited, that may well affect what others do. For example, a Christian couple might be getting married at a Kingdom Hall. If a disfellowshiped relative comes to the Kingdom Hall for the wedding, obviously he could not be in the bridal party there or "give away" the bride. What, though, if there is a wedding feast or reception? This can be a happy social occasion, as it was in Cana when Jesus attended. (John 2:1, 2) But will the disfellowshiped relative be allowed to come or even be invited? If he was going to attend, many Christians, relatives or not, might conclude that they should not be there, to eat and associate with him, in view of Paul’s directions at 1 Corinthians 5:11.24
Thus, sometimes Christians may not feel able to have a disfellowshiped or disassociated relative present for a gathering that normally would include family members. Still, the Christians can enjoy the association of the loyal members of the congregation, having in mind Jesus’ words: "Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother and sister and mother."—Mark 3:35.
25
The fact is that when a Christian gives himself over to sin and has to be disfellowshiped, he forfeits much: his approved standing with God; membership in the happy congregation of Christians; sweet fellowship with the brothers, including much of the association he had with Christian relatives. (1 Pet. 2:17) The pain he has caused may even survive him.26
Should he die while disfellowshiped, arrangements for his funeral may be a problem. His Christian relatives may like to have had a talk at the Kingdom Hall, if that is the local custom. But that would not be fitting for a person expelled from the congregation. If he had been giving evidence of repentance and wanting God’s forgiveness, such as by ceasing to practice sin and by attending Christian meetings, some brother’s conscience might allow him to give a Bible talk at the funeral home or grave site. Such Biblical comments about the condition of the dead provide a witness to unbelievers or comfort to the relatives. However, if the disfellowshiped person had still been advocating false teachings or ungodly conduct, even such a talk would not be appropriate.—2 John 9-11.
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R.Crusoe
I regret ever having been introduced to any literature in the context of them claiming to be uniquely about a real and invisible GOD. The context is so grooming you for a belief that it gives you little choice in the options available as an individual. The trouble is, some social groupings are so reliant upon this that it becomes impossible to do otherwise. Point me to groups of humanitarians with a social framework - or similar.
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jambon1
The strory of the prodigal son & also peter's sin of denying JC. In the case of Peter, he had doen something really bad yet he didn't ger punished by JC. He really punished himself as soon as he realised what he had done. The concept ofhanging someone out to dry for 6 months or a year is simply cruel & unecessary. Moreover, presenting a talk to the congregation based on the alledged sinfull conduct of the d/f'd person is just perverted & entirley cringeworth. Love? Pfft!
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oompa
LtCmd.Lore: "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."
They are not supposed to judge those on the outside, that's up to Yahweh, or Jesus or somebody. That should include disassociated people!
Lore, I like the thought about the use of the wordm "brother", but this reasoning may not work...The Judging, and removing, is done when they are on the INSIDE....that is how they wind up on the outside.....
I would like some more Scriptual help, or gramatical help getting around these verses because my dad is SOOOOO proud of the fact that "we keep the congregation clean...look what goes on in Christendoms churches..." I feel like the only poeple who do this more and harsher are extreme muslims....they whip, cut off body parts, and execute in the name of allah..........oompa
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martinwellborne
Matt 7 “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU".
James 2:13 "For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment."
James 4:11,12 "Quit speaking against one another, brothers. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother speaks against law and judges law. Now if you judge law, you are, not a doer of law, but a judge.
..One there is that is lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But you, who are you to be judging [your] neighbour?
What about Demas? Did Paul advocate sticking the boot in by shunning? No! all he said was... 2Tim 4:10 "For De´mas has forsaken me because he loved the present system of things, and he has gone to
...Thes·sa·lo·ni´ca.."
2 John v10 about greetings is specifically for those who do not believe Jesus came in the flesh, and should not be taken out of context.
just a few thoughts MW
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B_Deserter
"But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner"
Basically it says here anyone that is called a brother who is the following:- Fornicator
- Greedy Person
- Idolator
- Reviler
- Drunkard
- Extortioner
Nowhere does it talk about people that leave of their own volition. Nowhere does it talk about celebrating holidays. The society has blatantly added to this list.