YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad

by nicolaou 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    BA & Burn,

    What you seem to be evading is that:

    1) The Bible was written by men. Fact.

    2) The writers of the Bible, the men, insist that they wrote the inmost thoughts (where the breath comes from) of God under his power not their own.

    3) They supply no proof for this, but ask that their ancient word is accepted as a matter of faith.

    4) In this instance faith means 'a firm belief in something for which there is no proof".

    However much you try to squirm off the hook of this logic, it will never happen. You only have 'faith" that you are correct in your viewpoint. You have no proof, and therefore no rebuttal to offer those asking for proof of that which you both, and in BA's case arrogantly, assert.

    Call them morons, sneer at them, scramble around with the Google weapon as much as you may, all these people are asking for is proof, or an admission that you believe what cannot be proved.

    If you actually have some evidence that is not a matter of opinion or "faith" to offer that actually proves your assertion that the Bible is "God-Breathed' (and anyone with half a brain on the subject knows what the Greek 'Theo-pneustos' means - for example, I discussed this in my first public talk in 1973 when I was a brain-dormant JW!) you should present it now.

    Cheers - HS

  • BurnTheShips
  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    HS.

    I am evading nothing. Please see my previous post. I am only saying that White is a notable defender of the inspiration of Scripture in the context of sola scriptura doctrine.

    The writers of the Bible, the men, insist that they wrote the inmost thoughts (where the breath comes from) of God under his power not their own.

    The vast majority of the text makes no such self-referential affirmation. In fact, no such claim comes to my mind.

    For the most part, the claims are made by those that came after the putative authors.

    Burn

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Burn,

    As usual your literalist approach is just designed to evade the issue and confuse the readers:

    I am evading nothing. Please see my previous post. I am only saying that White is a notable defender of the inspiration of Scripture in the context of sola scriptura doctrine.

    I am writing this post against the backdrop of not this one statement, and you know this. I am writing asking for evidence of your own and BA's belief, if indeed you have such a belief, that the Bible is "god-breathed".

    The writers of the Bible, the men, insist that they wrote the inmost thoughts (where the breath comes from) of God under his power not their own.

    The vast majority of the text makes no such self-referential affirmation. In fact, no such claim comes to my mind.

    For the most part, the claims are made by those that came after the putative authors.

    Again, you know very well what I mean. The Bible writers are viewed as "inspired" but its believers. All of them. The Greek term "inspired" as has been noted, is God-breathed. Theo-pneustos. Paul states that "all scripture is inspired". As he only had a few scattered C1st writings at hand at the time, most of which did not end up in the canon of scripture, we must also conclude that he included the Old Testament in this statement.

    Now, perhaps you might attend to the ACTUAL point of my post, which I will quote again in full:

    BA & Burn,

    What you seem to be evading is that:

    1) The Bible was written by men. Fact.

    2) The writers of the Bible, the men, insist that they wrote the inmost thoughts (where the breath comes from) of God under his power not their own.

    3) They supply no proof for this, but ask that their ancient word is accepted as a matter of faith.

    4) In this instance faith means 'a firm belief in something for which there is no proof".

    However much you try to squirm off the hook of this logic, it will never happen. You only have 'faith" that you are correct in your viewpoint. You have no proof, and therefore no rebuttal to offer those asking for proof of that which you both, and in BA's case arrogantly, assert.

    Call them morons, sneer at them, scramble around with the Google weapon as much as you may, all these people are asking for is proof, or an admission that you believe what cannot be proved.

    If you actually have some evidence that is not a matter of opinion or "faith" to offer that actually proves your assertion that the Bible is "God-Breathed' (and anyone with half a brain on the subject knows what the Greek 'Theo-pneustos' means - for example, I discussed this in my first public talk in 1973 when I was a brain-dormant JW!) you should present it now.

    HS

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    B.A.

    I believe that the Bible is God-breathed, that the men who wrote the Bible were scribes who wrote God's thoughts.

    Have you ever read The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman? These are two eminent archaeologists who have, in my opinion, done a great job in sifting fable from fact in the Hebrew scriptures. As far as I know, their findings have never been disproved with any worthwhile contrary evidence. The book certainly puts the scriptures in a whole new light and clearly shows the scribes wrote their own thoughts.

    I'd just be interested to know your thoughts on the book.

    Sincerely,

    Ian

    Yes, I have read The Bible Unearthed. There are always at least two sides to every story, so for a balanced view of their claims, I also read differing archaeologist's and apologetic replies to the points Finkelstein and Silberman make. Have you?

    Their findings (opinions) can't be disproved, because they are opinions. However, there are numerous rebuttals to their opinions on apologetic websites, as well as differing interpretations by other prominent archaeologists (Cathey, Deven, Dothan, Ussishkin, Herzog, Ben-Tor, Mazar, etc) all over the internet. Archaeological evidence is interpreted by both minimalists and maximilists. If you don't read both sides, you come away with a skewed viewpoint. The book does provide a different perspective on the scriptures, but as far as the conclusions reached, these have been rebutted, and continue to be rebutted.

    Finkelstein and Silberman's opinions shows the scribes wrote their own thoughts? They are their opinions, with many dissenting viewpoints on how archaological evidence is best interpreted.

    In other words, you'll find among archaeologists a contuum of belief from minimalist to maximilist, and all points in between. There is black and white, and there are shades of grey all along the continuum of these extremes.I am absolutely convinced that most who left the jws never get this point. You must learn at some point in your life that what you readily accept as "fact" is in reality nothing more than an interpretation, an opinion, and these always change with time. Finkelstein and Silberman have crossed the line in their book numerous times where they state as fact what is only opinion, and they have many, or even most, who currently (or will in time) disagree with their "findings".

    Here is a sampling of viewpoints on Finkelstein and Silberman :

    Quote: "As a working archaeologist ... I can attest that Finklestein et al. have based their conclusions upon "selected" data. You can’t hold "one" archaeologist [Finkelstein] up as the paragon of the field and expect the scholars to bow to him. I would direct your readers to Mazar’s recent articles (over fifteen) that dispute the findings in this work. Likewise I would also direct your readers to articles and monographs by Ben-Tor, and even Dothan and Dever. They all will agree on one thing - the data does not support a lowering of the chronology nor the dates he adduces". -Joe Cathey

    Quote: "I was one of the student volunteer diggers for Yadin on the 1971 excavation that found the Solomonic Gate at Gezer. Four of us Dug like crazy for four weeks just shoveling dirt as fast as we could to get down to the Gate. Trust me no one dug it up and rolled rocks down the hill before we got there as some have suggested. We had to dig down though twenty feet of dirt, often having to USE A PICK AXE TO LOOSEN THE ROCKS AND SOIL just to get to it. In the adjoining area burned debris was present above the floor. Assuming this was Shishak's destruction of 930 BC then that pretty much clinches the story, without even getting into the casemate wall issue or the pottery...Finkelstein's argument however, is absurd. You have three identical Heavy Gates all below the Shishak destruction. Call him Solomon or Call him Jerry, the same leader was obviously responsible and the timing is right, so objectively speaking.... whats the problem? ...
    The instant attraction of the minimalist argument/low chronology has less to do with archaeology than with theology and politics I suspect. ...But to let that blind you to the wonders of the text is to poke your own eye out because what you see offends you. The Gates are Solomonic and there is more to the mystery than most are comfortable with. It is the fear of the very real mystery of God which foments fundamentalism, and blinds the minds eye. Don't let fundamentalism blind your objectivity toward science nor toward God." - Daniel Pride www.kingsolomonsgate.com

    Quote: "Even without the above-mentioned archaeological finds (which to the unbiased examiner prove that camels were domesticated in the time of Abraham), it only seems reasonable to conclude that since wild camels have been known since the Creation, "there is no credible reason why such an indispensable animal in desert and semi-arid lands should not have been sporadically domesticated in patriarchal times and even earlier" ("Animal Kingdom," 1988). The truth is, all of the available evidence points to one conclusion—the limited use of domesticated camels during and before the time of Abraham did occur. The supposed "anachronism" of domesticated camels during the time of the patriarchs is, in fact, an actual historical reference to the use of these animals at that time. Those who reject this conclusion cannot give one piece of solid archaeological evidence on their behalf. They simply argue from the "silence" of archaeology…which is silent no more!" -Eric Lyons- http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1781

    more:

    http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/13

    http://www.tektonics.org/af/bibleunrvw2.html

    BA- In short, my take is- Some people can't get enough of revisionism ad nauseum.

    PS- It seems these days it's ok to be a skeptic of the Bible, but not ok to be a skeptic of what it's detractors write.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    To return to your question HS.

    Please understand that the Bible was never intended as a guide for converts, it was written for those who already were in the faith. It is not a full-scale theological exposition or a comprehensive catechesis. There are parts that are clearly very difficult to understand and easy to misinterpret. This was even true in the temporal immediacy of the 1st century. As Peter writes: Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    If we use textual criticism in evaluating Scripture we are able to conclude that we have a text with an accuracy that is more certain than that of any other ancient work. The Bible contains many fulfilled prophecies and is very accurate with respect to historical details as well. However, even if it did contain some historical inaccuracies, the message of scripture isn't detracted from. It isn't a history textbook but a spiritual guide.

    Besides all this, I believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ founded the Church, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. What would be bound on earth would be bound in heaven by that mystical body. Christ entrusted the Church with authority and protected it, beginning with the 12 apostles. He enfused it with the Holy Spirit. The Church, using this authority, decided which books constituted Scripture and which did not (albeit after a considerable period of time and much disagreement) That Christianity had lasted so long under frequently very difficult circumstances without a universally accepted canon is evidence that the book is not the sole foundation of the faith.

    However, regardless of any arguments I can put forward, I trust the Bible on faith.

    Sincerely,

    Burn

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    HS,

    Here's proof- Bible prophecy fulfilled.

    I mean, prophecies concerning Babylon, Egypt, Israel, Christ, etc, etc, etc.

    They've been posted here (on JWD) before.

    Here's a site that covers many of them quite well (no, I'm not Christadelphian), enjoy your reading:

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Heres more proof:

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Burn,

    However, regardless of any arguments I can put forward, I trust the Bible on faith.

    Thank you.

    As faith (in this instance) is defined as I noted above as belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence, the word "trust" is an important one, and one that I wish to return to shortly.

    Before that however, I am interested in this comment "the Bible contains many fulfilled prophecies". Without using "cut and past" mortars from the Google Weapon, which just proves that a person can use "control C" and "control V' and not that actually understand one thing about which they pontificate, can you provide a list of prophecies written in Scripture and "fulfilled" that do not rely on internal Biblical "evidence" that they have been fulfilled.

    Many thanks - HS

  • Robert222
    Robert222

    That Genesis account has always been confusing to me. Raised a JW I was told to simply believe the following based on the faithful and discreet slave:

    Adam and Eve gave the world knowledge by eating from the tree, no one has eaten from the tree of life, thats why we die; Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed to get Lot to leave those cities (he and his wife were happy and prosperous/notice Lots wife was killed) and keep the lineage pure by his daughters having children to preserve the line for the birth of Jesus; Abraham sacrificing his son pictured Jesus being sacrificed.

    Today I think people receive no direction from god, despite what the Society wants you to believe, they are just another corporate religion trying to get people afraid to control their dollars and their everlasting life. Evidently god know wants your money.

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