Why do bible thumpers have to immagine a God who test. (page 4)

Liberty

Hi BurnTheShips,

I am not sure which sect or philosophy of Christianity you believe in. If you are a "moderate" you may not see the same contradictions that many of us do because we are viewing it as an argument against traditional "Fundie" Christianity.

Your refutations against the clear Bible tradition of a testing God just seem to prove that the Bible is often in contradiction with itself. In traditional Christianity isn't our whole life just a long test to see if we are going to be saved from damnation? Even in those sects which believe in predestination your life just proves what God knew already, whether you pass into salvation or fail the tests into damnation. If there are no tests then everyone is saved regardless of the life they lead and God's mercy is very bountiful indeed... but this is not biblical.

As to Free Will, I do not understand how, if there are any rewards or punishments involved, will can be free by any stretch of logic. Once again, if everyone recieves the same treatment in the End regardless of how they lived then that would be an exercise in Free Will but this too is not biblical. If I am to be tortured in Hell or rewarded in Heaven due to my behaviour then I am not only being tested but CANNOT exercise any Free Will since I am compelled to behave in a certain way by an authority figure who has the power to reward or punish. If answering to an authority figure is Free Will then Hilter was a grand practicer of it since you were "free" to defy him and go to a slow death in a concentration camp or you could be rewarded with a government contract and wealth as your reward for serving him. I can't understand how this is Free Will since in every way it is the exact opposite.

cognizant dissident

If God allows a test it is because it is for our ultimate good. We have a hard time understanding this at the moment.

Yes, we do have a hard time understanding it because it defies both logic and our sense of love and justice. God does not test us, he allows horrible tests to be perpetrated on us by others.

What would people think of me as a parent, if I allowed my vilest enemy, a murder, liar, torturer, etc, to come into my home and do whatever he wanted to my children, whom I love more than anything in the world, just to see if they would still love and adore me even after I allowed atrocities to happen to them? How ridiculous and absurd. You are right. I don't understand a parent like that and I never will.

Cog

nvrgnbk

Free will?

Bullshit!

Brother Apostate

Hmmm.

A test is required before it is known whether someone is capable of driving a vehicle and issuing them a license.

Many tests are required before someone is proven capable being an engineer, doctor, or attorney, etc.

If God tests persons to determine who is capable of obeying Him and putting Faith in Him, why is that dificult to understand?

Did not Adam, Eve, Satan, demons, etc fail the tests? By their actions, they willingly disobeyed God by not putting faith in Him and His instructions.

The consequences of their disobedience should be a warning to the wise.

BA- Answering the question.

PS- Obey God rather than men. It's the course of wisdom.

nvrgnbk

If God tests persons to determine who is capable of obeying Him and putting Faith in Him, why is that dificult to understand?

The test you propose smacks of predestination at worst, predisposition at best.

Capable of?

If you're not capable, why would you be adversely judged?

Why would God expect from us what we're incapable of giving?

cognizant dissident

BA Your analogy is weak.

All of the test you mention are tests of skill, that determine if someone is capable of accomplishing a task.

They never involve allowing atrocities to be inflicted on the test taker to see whether they will love the test giver.

Did not God create us all capable of loving him? Then he already knows we are capable of it and that is not what the test is about. Your analogy doesn't fit. My analogy of the loving parent allowing beloved children to have atrocities committed against them by a sworn ememy fits perfectly, however. I noticed you didn't bother to comment on whether you though that would be appropriate parenting on my part? If we are to follow God's example in love, this same test should be recommended for all human parents to test their own children's love and devotion.

Cog

cognizant dissident

Actually, the whole argument that God does not test us himself, but allows us to be tested is false. Many of the scriptures Eclipse quoted word for word clearly state many times that God himself does the testing. "I will test" , they do not say, "I will allow others to test". Trying to change the wording of them after the fact to soften the meaning and make it more palatable is intellectual dishonesty (lying). This is what the WTBTS does all the time and why they are accused of lying so often. As a matter of fact, your argument is not original BA, I have heard it before, exactly as you put it, written in the Watchtower and spouted from the platform at the KH. I also think it is in the "reasoning" book. You can twist words all you like but they still mean the same thing.

I know there are many other scriptures that clearly say that God will not test us. Thanks for pointing those out. They prove perfectly just how often the Bible contradicts itself and is thus an unreliable witness to anything, again, much like the WTBTS.

Cog

Brother Apostate

nvr,

The test you propose smacks of predestination at worst, predisposition at best.

Capable of?

If you're not capable, why would you be adversely judged?

Why would God expect from us what we're incapable of giving?

You are correct in pointing out my error, I overlooked how my meaning was unclear by using the word "capable", rather than "will".

I now correct my error, what I meant to state:

If God tests persons to determine who will obey Him and put Faith in Him, why is that dificult to understand?

I do not believe in predestination. As for predisposition, yes, we are disposed to err, "tis human to err", however, through trial and test we may strengthen our resolve and our faith if that is our goal.

As we overcome tests and trials, our faith in our ability to do so will continue to grow, enabling us to withstand greater and greater tests and trials in life.

BA

nvrgnbk

You are correct in pointing out my error, I overlooked how my meaning was unclear by using the word "capable", rather than "will".
I now correct my error, what I meant to state:
If God tests persons to determine who will obey Him and put Faith in Him, why is that dificult to understand?
I do not believe in predestination. As for predisposition, yes, we are disposed to err, "tis human to err", however, through trial and test we may strengthen our resolve and our faith if that is our goal.
As we overcome tests and trials, our faith in our ability to do so will continue to grow, enabling us to withstand greater and greater tests and trials in life.
BA

Thanks for the clarification, BA.

I was sure you couldn't mean that.

cognizant dissident

If God tests persons to determine who will obey Him and put Faith in Him, why is that dificult to understand?

It's not difficult to understand if God is cruel and unjust. It is impossible to reconcile with a God of loving kindness, mercy, and justice.

Why do bible thumpers have to immagine a God who test.

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