Why do bible thumpers have to immagine a God who test.

by jaguarbass 58 Replies latest jw friends

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Cog,

    I can assure you that my statements are of my own origin. Any similarity to others thoughts is purely coincidental. As for your child-parent analogy, yes it is useful. Parents as well as teachers test children to see what they have learned. Have they learned correctly, and will they obey? Only testing proves one way or another whether they have or have not. Tests start out simple, and increase in complexity and difficulty as we grow and learn. So, too, God tests (some of) us and allows all of us to be tested as we grow and learn.

    Our will to obey Him by overcoming those tests is what proves us faithful and, potentially, righteous.

    BA

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    As we overcome tests and trials, our faith in our ability to do so will continue to grow, enabling us to withstand greater and greater tests and trials in life.

    Then why do so many people, many of them believers in God, often grow in depression and despair when they are tested? Some even reach the point of suicide. How did their test make their belief/'faith in their abilities to withstand future tests greater and greater. In fact their suicide would tend to prove the opposite. I thought God would not allow them to be tested beyond what they could bear? What about being tested undo death? If the purpose of testing is to make one stronger or one's faith stronger, doesn't allowing the testee to be killed defeat the purpose of the test?

    Cog

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate
    If God tests persons to determine who will obey Him and put Faith in Him, why is that dificult to understand?- BA
    It's not difficult to understand if God is cruel and unjust. It is impossible to reconcile with a God of loving kindness, mercy, and justice -Cog.

    I find no difficulty at all in reconciling His allowing us to be tested with the fact that He is a God of loving kindness, mercy, and justice. Quite to the contrary, I find it makes sense that He would allow us to be tested to prove we will obey and put faith in Him. BA

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Then why do so many people, many of them believers in God, often grow in depression and despair when they are tested? Some even reach the point of suicide. How did their test make their belief/'faith in their abilities to withstand future tests greater and greater. In fact their suicide would tend to prove the opposite. I thought God would not allow them to be tested beyond what they could bear? What about being tested undo death? If the purpose of testing is to make one stronger or one's faith stronger, doesn't allowing the testee to be killed defeat the purpose of the test?

    Cog

    Good questions.

    None of us, including moi, has all the answers.

    Here's my thoughts- Perhaps because they have a chemical imbalance or other physiological source of their depression. Just as cancer and other maladies may take our lives prematurely, due to our fallen state, so mental diseases may cause the same to occur.

    Being tested to death, as in martyrdom, is, for those doing so, a privelege with a magnificent and unique reward, the first resurrection, a guarantee that they will never face the second death(Revelation 20:5-6). As for those who do not pass that test, I believe God, being righteous, loving, kind and just and merciful will judge them appropriately.

    BA

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    I can assure you that my statements are of my own origin. Any similarity to others thoughts is purely coincidental. Well, if the western world had not been exposed for thousands of years to this teaching which originated in the Bible, and has been regurgitated by every major Christian denomination in one form or another, or you had been locked in a room your whole life with no exposure to the outside world and cared for only by atheists I might believe it was your own original idea and purely coincidental. LOL

    As for your child-parent analogy, yes it is useful. Parents as well as teachers test children to see what they have learned. Have they learned correctly, and will they obey? Only testing proves one way or another whether they have or have not. Tests start out simple, and increase in complexity and difficulty as we grow and learn. So, too, God tests (some of) us and allows all of us to be tested as we grow and learn.

    Yes, and as I stated earlier, if parents or teachers used or allowed the same kinds of atrocities as tests on children that Christians attribute God as using or allowing, they would be put in jail and labelled psychopathic monsters. Are we created in God's image or not. Is psychological and physical torture a crime for humans but justice when perpertrated by God. How are we to distinguish the difference. Does it matter to us whether we are burned forever in hell by God or burned forever in hell by Satan. When we are burning, do we care WHO is sticking us with the pitchfork? The experience is perceived the same by the one being tortured regardless.

    Our will to obey Him by overcoming those tests is what proves us faithful and, potentially, righteous.

    You keep saying it over and over but you don't answer the question of how it makes us stronger? Demonstrate how being afflicted with suffering makes one stronger. I know from my study of biology that repeated traumas actually weaken the body, and the nervous system of human beings. This has been demonstrated by numerous empirical studies.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe.” – Carl Sagan

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    None of us, including moi, has all the answers.

    True, none of us does. Thankfully, I do not need all the answers. I only need to know the answer to one for this discussion. Is the claim that God allows suffering in this world in order to test our love and loyalty to him, consistent, fair, just and loving? as measured by what is generally considered consistent, fair, just, and loving behaviour on the part of human parents who are supposedly created in his image? The answer is obvious.

    Here's my thoughts- Perhaps because they have a chemical imbalance or other physiological source of their depression. Just as cancer and other maladies may take our lives prematurely, due to our fallen state, so mental diseases may cause the same to occur.

    Oh I believe they probably do have a chemical imbalance or physiological source to their depression also. The trauma of repeated trials and tribulations, whether inflicted by God or random events, is proven to cause neurological and phsyiological illness that weaken the body and mind, not strengthening it as taught in traditionally in most religions. Another myth that science has proved inaccurate.

    Being tested to death, as in martyrdom, is, for those doing so, a privelege with a magnificent and unique reward, the first resurrection, a guarantee that they will never face the second death(Revelation 20:5-6). As for those who do not pass that test, I believe God, being righteous, loving, kind and just and merciful will judge them

    Oh well, then, if you believe it, it must be true!

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate
    I can assure you that my statements are of my own origin. Any similarity to others thoughts is purely coincidental. -BA
    Well, if the western world had not been exposed for thousands of years to this teaching which originated in the Bible, and has been regurgitated by every major Christian denomination in one form or another, or you had been locked in a room your whole life with no exposure to the outside world and cared for only by atheists I might believe it was your own original idea and purely coincidental. LOL - Cog

    By "my own origin" I mean just that. I needn't plagarize another's work, something you seem to have insinuated. Rather, off the top of my head I answered of my own origin. Of course, we all believe what we believe based on what we have learned and experieced, by which we construct an individual belief system. Much as what you have written can be compared to what others have written and coincidentally found very similar if not identical.

    As for your child-parent analogy, yes it is useful. Parents as well as teachers test children to see what they have learned. Have they learned correctly, and will they obey? Only testing proves one way or another whether they have or have not. Tests start out simple, and increase in complexity and difficulty as we grow and learn. So, too, God tests (some of) us and allows all of us to be tested as we grow and learn. -BA
    Yes, and as I stated earlier, if parents or teachers used or allowed the same kinds of atrocities as tests on children that Christians attribute God as using or allowing, they would be put in jail and labelled psychopathic monsters. Are we created in God's image or not. Is psychological and physical torture a crime for humans but justice when perpertrated by God. How are we to distinguish the difference. Does it matter to us whether we are burned forever in hell by God or burned forever in hell by Satan. When we are burning, do we care WHO is sticking us with the pitchfork? The experience is perceived the same by the one being tortured regardless. -Cog

    The difference is that God has the power to resurrect, and most tests do not come from Him, but from Satan and/or our fallen human state. God does not, and has not, psychologically and physically torture anyone. As for hell, I am one Christian among many who does not belive hell is literally a burniing fire, rather, the fire of hell is symbolic of destruction.

    Our will to obey Him by overcoming those tests is what proves us faithful and, potentially, righteous.-BA
    You keep saying it over and over but you don't answer the question of how it makes us stronger? Demonstrate how being afflicted with suffering makes one stronger. I know from my study of biology that repeated traumas actually weaken the body, and the nervous system of human beings. This has been demonstrated by numerous empirical studies. -Cog

    I have experienced becoming stronger. If one exercises (repeated traumas to) their body, it becomes stronger. If one exercises their reasoning ability, it becomes stronger. If one is tested and overcomes, they become stronger. I'm surprised you question such a truism. Although I'm not a big believer in Nietsche, his statement that "that which does not kill us makes us stronger", is generally felt to be true by many, if not most. My experience in life has taught me it is true. If you disagree, so be it.

    BA

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    By "my own origin" I mean just that. I needn't plagarize another's work, something you seem to have insinuated. Rather, off the top of my head I answered of my own origin. Of course, we all believe what we believe based on what we have learned and experieced, by which we construct an individual belief system. Much as what you have written can be compared to what others have written and coincidentally found very similar if not identical.

    I did not mean to insinuate that you had plagarized anything. Only that your claim that God did not mean "I test" when he said "I test" but he meant something else such as "allowed" is a very old and very often repeated argument. I agree with you, some of what we learn and believe has been taught to us by someone else and to them by someone else and some of it comes from our direct experience. Belief in God is obtained by the first method.

    The difference is that God has the power to resurrect, and most tests do not come from Him, but from Satan and/or our fallen human state. God does not, and has not, psychologically and physically torture anyone. As for hell, I am one Christian among many who does not belive hell is literally a burniing fire, rather, the fire of hell is symbolic of destruction.

    Well, since there is no direct evidence of any ressurected persons and it is a very extraordinary claim that is contrary to all of my direct experience, then I am going to have to see some proof myself before I accept this belief.

    I have experienced becoming stronger. If one exercises (repeated traumas to) their body, it becomes stronger. If one exercises their reasoning ability, it becomes stronger. If one is tested and overcomes, they become stronger. I'm surprised you question such a truism. Although I'm not a big believer in Nietsche, his statement that "that which does not kill us makes us stronger", is generally felt to be true by many, if not most. My experience in life has taught me it is true. If you disagree, so be it.

    Moderate exercise is not traumatic to the body. It is a beneficial stress. A traumatic stress is one that overwhelms psychologically and physically. Natural disasters, mass murders, any murders, death, disease, loss of limb, traumatic injuries, torture, rape, child abuse, are of these nature. You know, think of all the horrible things that devastate people physically and mentally, that sometimes cause people to wish for death for a release of their suffering, that cause even true believers to say "why me?" and cause other believers to say "God is allowing you to be tested" or "God is testing you". Come on! When have you ever heard any believer claiming exercise as a test from God? The comparison is meaningless.

    The statement, "that which does not kill us makes us stronger" may generally be believed to be true. So was the belief that the earth was flat at one time. It has since been proved false and so has that first statement, by modern medical studies on traumatic stress. So, it is not a truism. If by "your experience" you mean your experiences excercising then you are really stretching for an argument. Still, if you insist on using that example, extreme exercise can injure and weaken the body permanently and does not make one stronger! Very much like God's supposed testing of humans!

    Cog

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Cog, for the record,

    Only that your claim that God did not mean "I test" when he said "I test" but he meant something else such as "allowed" is a very old and very often repeated argument.

    I didn't state that. I acknowledged earlier in this thread that God (rarely) tests some of us (His faithful). Most tests we face come from Satan or our own desires originating from our fallen state.

    As for overcoming testing and trial making us stronger, we'll apparently have to agree to disagree, as my experience and obsevation has taught me otherwise.

    BA

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