what the naked text says
Fine, there you go--the naked text of 4:34. No explanation needed, right?
~Merry
Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes
by Witness 007 48 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Merry Magdalene
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sweetstuff
The problem though lies in interpretation, like with any religion, if the majority interprets a hadith or Quran verse to mean a certain thing and uphold it by Sharia Law, it becomes the reality for millions. Any truth shouldn't be able to be interpreted, it just is. Meaning, no one can argue that the moon exists. We know it does, no one can say, well I don't really think its there, I think its a shadow.
With religious text and belief, that's exactly what people do, they say, well, that's not how I see it, while others disagree. That's not truth, that's opinion. Therein lies the problem with religion as whole. It's completely subjective. You could say, that's not what Mohammed meant, but millions of muslims would disagree with you. So....if something isn't clearly truth, why live your life by it?
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Merry Magdalene
I am quite frustrated, as I do not know how to say what I am trying to say any more clearly than I already have.
I feel that people are still unable or unwilling to distinguish between--
(1) what my own studies, contemplations and experiences have shown me that Islam really is and teaches (good)
and
(2) what those who hate it and want to destroy it, as well as those who twist and abuse it for their own ends and those who are just plain confused or misled, say that it is and teaches (bad).
Sounds arrogant, I know. Miss Junior Muslimah know-it-all.But the Islam I know and love is not what most of you here think and say Islam is. I wish to correct these misconceptions. I hate distortions and untruths.
But please do not think I began my inquiries into Islam with any desire to make it something other than what it is (nor do I want to or need to now). It was not my religion and I had no reason to go out of my way to defend it. I just wanted to know the truth about it and, most fortunately, did not have any strong preconceived notions that Islam was either good or bad. I was not that familiar with it and did not imagine that what little I had heard about it was either the whole truth or complete falsehood.
A chat-friend in Turkey encouraged me to read the Qur'an. I thought, "Sure, ok. I've always had an interest in world religions and I don't remember ever trying to read it before. I'll have a go at it one of these days." I found some translations on-line, and started to read it but got distracted and didn't get very far.
Later, after he asked me again if I had read it, I tried again and this time read it all the way through. I could barely pull myself away from it. But I also found myself noticing items about Islam and Muslims more and more in the news and online, and none of it good.
So lots of questions sprang up! I would ask him about it, he would answer as best his English would allow and then I would go Googling. I dug and I dug: pro-Islam info, anti-Islam info, converts, apostates, scholars, anyone with an opinion, Qur'an, Hadith, the challenges of translating Arabic to English. I searched, I studied, I sifted, I sorted, I pondered.
I found ridiculously unsatisfactory apologetics (to my mind), I found some that were quite convincing, I found horrible outright lies, I found questionable information, I found sound information (all this to my mind, of course, my mind being all that I have with which to question, compare and decide), and beyond all that, I found myself simply accepting and believing the Qur'an on what I felt were its own merits.
I hope to read and understand the Qur'an in Arabic someday, and am working towards that. Until then, I will continue reading and researching English translations (which seem woefully inadequate and yet, somehow, still managed to"speak" to me) and I am currently reading it for the 5th time. I am not afraid to continue questioning and learning, but I see a huge difference between what Islam is and what too many Muslims and non-Muslims have made of it (what a horror show!), and that difference is what I try to show people.
Sweetstuff, the Qur'an does not say most of the people in hell are women, that comes from a hadith. Don't have time to discuss it now. http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=7547&CATE=3600 And it does not say women are inferior! although I am sure there is a good reason you think so. http://www.afghan-web.com/articles/womenrights.html
~Merry
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sweetstuff
Sweetstuff, the Qur'an does not say most of the people in hell are women, that comes from a hadith. Don't have time to discuss it now. http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=7547&CATE=3600 And it does not say women are inferior! although I am sure there is a good reason you think so. http://www.afghan-web.com/articles/womenrights.html
Well, from what I see, the Qur'an and the hadiths are pretty much interlinked and forgive me for not clarifying that it was a hadith. I read the links you sent, and please understand, this isn't an attack on you or muslim people, however, I don't honestly see what you see in the Qu'ran at all. A man can marry up to four wives, yet some scholars suggest the passages encourage one wife. Umm, ok, well it still says a man can have four wives. I have a problem with that, period, and as for the justification that its because they needed to be protected, now that reminds me of the bible, alot. The whole multiple wives thing, doesn't sit well with me, personally.
Merry, if it makes you happy and you feel fufilled by your beliefs, more power to you. I couldn't personally be part of any religion that says in theory, we teach this, but in reality this is what's practiced, and that includes christianity. In my eyes, religion has done nothing but create hate and pain in the world.
I have a dear friend who married a muslim man, from Jordan, handsome, sweet, kind....until after the wedding! Boy did things change then. All of a sudden, it was no more tolerance for her being a christian, whatsoever. His family was pressuring him, he in turn pressured her. She also found out, he failed to mention something rather important, he had a wife already, in Jordan. He told her the same things I see written in your comments, that this is not Islam, women are respected, they have rights, etc. I guess you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
My point is this, while you may feel frustrated that what you have learned doesn't jive with what most people see in Islam, including alot of muslims, your frustration would be better put to use, like you said, in questioning yourself that if in fact, things are not done according to the way they should be, would it have god's spirit upon it anyway?
The atrocities going on towards muslim women all over the world and particularly in muslim countries are not figments of the imagination. They are not "false reports" intended to insight hatred. These are things being done by muslims. Just like the crimes of christianity can't be shooed away by saying, well its not the book that is at fault, neither can the crimes of Islam.
When people do horrible things based on their religious beliefs, or lack of correct information on their own religious beliefs, it defeats the very purpose of the religion to begin with.
On the subject of the rights of muslim women, with all due respect, your experience as a muslim woman is not even comparable to the living hell millions of muslim women live daily under the reins of muslim men. I spoke to a very well known muslim woman (out of respect for her privacy, I will not share her name) in Saudi Arabia regarding just this subject and her take on it? Having been muslim her entire life and living in the most fundemental Islamic country on the planet? If you see a muslim man, RUN...because they are incapable of true love, they only equate love with ownership. Her words there, not mine.
So that being said, we can agree to disagree, I hope. I see Islam as enslavers of women. You do not. But I fear if you were ever to live in a muslim country your opinion would vastly change, perhaps not. I do have a question for you however, doesn't it bother you as a woman that you cover up your god given beauty, yet muslim men dont' have to? That a muslim woman is not free to marry outside of her religion, but a muslim man is free to marry people of the "book" meaning christians and jews?
I sincerely look forward to your reply.
SS
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nvrgnbk
Though I fundamentally disagree with many of your beliefs, Merry, your ability to defend them with such grace and humility is extraordinary.
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AlmostAtheist
>>Well, from what I see, the Qur'an and the hadiths are pretty much interlinked and forgive me for not clarifying that it was a hadith.
I am an expert on Islam, because I have an agnostic/muslim friend, and will therefore comment on this thread. Read, and be amazed at my great knowledge. *roll eyes*
Ok, you've been warned. So here's my take: The Quran is solid. The hadiths are "strong" and "weak". The "strong" hadiths are those that are believed 95% certain to be from the Prophet. The "weak" hadiths are those that are less certainly his actual words. So in the Islamic mind, the Quran is 100% unquestionable, the strong hadith is to be obeyed, and the weak hadith is to be strongly considered.
So "interlinked", yes, but not in the same way that the old and new testaments are interlinked for a Christian, or the bible and the book of mormon is for a mormon.
Dave
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funkyderek
Merry Magdalene:
I am quite frustrated, as I do not know how to say what I am trying to say any more clearly than I already have.
Of course you do. All you have to do is say - in English - what you think the Koran means when it uses the phrase in Surah 4:34 that is translated as "the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them"
Would you say that beating one's wife is (a) forbidden by the Koran, (b) not mentioned in the Koran or (c) explicitly condoned in the Koran?
If your answer is not (c), is the above verse mistranslated or taken out of context? What exactly does it mean? There's little point saying that "[t]he Qur'an teaches love for women and respect for women's rights" while ignoring a specific passage where it clearly does not.
I feel that people are still unable or unwilling to distinguish between--
(1) what my own studies, contemplations and experiences have shown me that Islam really is and teaches (good)
and
(2) what those who hate it and want to destroy it, as well as those who twist and abuse it for their own ends and those who are just plain confused or misled, say that it is and teaches (bad).Well then, let's eliminate both prejudices (yours which will always assume that what is written in the Koran is good and that of those who will always think the opposite) by looking at what Islam actually teaches. Let's look at the words of the Koran and the hadiths, what is taught in the mosques and what is practised by devout Muslims.
The Koran and hadiths both appear to teach that women are inferior to men, and that men have authority over their wives. This appears to be taught in mosques where women must worship in a separate area from men, it appears to be brutally enforced in countries ruled by apparent Sharia law and it appears to be normal behaviour among Muslims. Am I really mistaken on all - or indeed any - of those counts? And if that's not true Islam, then what is?
One more thing I can't let go:
The Qur'an teaches love for women and respect for women's rights. Muhammad (pbuh) lived the Qur'an and provided the best example for us.
Was it a good example when he, in his 50s, married a six year old, whom he raped when she was nine? Where were the rights of that frightened little girl when she was sold by her parents and violated by a man old enough to be her grandfather?
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Witness 007
Merry Magdelene = No offense meant! But Mohamed a perfect follower of the Koran??? Have you ever followed his real biography?? It's like Mormons describe Joseph Smith the prophet as a glowing saint. They forget to mention the child-molesting {under-age brides} and 30 wives,whom he told it was "God's Will" they marry him. His first wife was not happy. They forget that he lived by violence and died in a shoot out. Prophets are what we make them today in 2007. Why do you wear a head covering?? My muslim friends from Europe don't ever!! {best friend's I respect} In Iran your arrested if you don't {different interpratation} In Europe muslim scholars say the Koran meant "beat your wife" with a straw. Some Middle east Muslim scholars say "beat your wife" with a fist. It's all about changing and white washing what was said like Mormons do and Witnesses and Muslims.
Sorry Merry I disagree with you but I hope you have found peace in your life..I think if it makes you happy thats something most of US may not have. {lost faith very critical of religion} Peace.
P.S I never discuss religion with my Muslim friends since we argue too much, especially when I was a Witness.
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serotonin_wraith
Merry,
Do you believe Mohammed flew on a winged horse?
-SW.
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Kudra
What I understand is that people generally only take the good in the religion they choose to follow... many do not have the equivalent problem with Christianity that they do with Islam. -What about the texts in the Bible where rape of captive non-Israelites is condoned?
How about the stoning of homosexuals?
How about disobedient children needing to be killed?
Even the new testament still condemns homosexuals and admonishes slaves to be obedient to their masters.
Of course no one thinks this is what Christianity demands. I know that some DO call attention to this (like Richard Dawkins etc) and say that people that accept Christianity are picking and choosing values that THEY like rather than what the "war-god" of the Bible actually requires.
Shouldn't we allow the same of Islam and Muslims? If you are going to say that being Muslim DEMANDS that men beat their wives, they you also need to understand that following the Bible DEMANDS death for disobedient children, stoning of homosexuals etc etc...
-K