Seratonin-
Do you think the same sort of standard (i.e. demanding that Christians admit to believing that Adam and Eve actually spoke to a talking serpent or a flood actually covered the WHOLE earth?) should be applied to followers of every religion?
People don't demand that Buddhists actually own up to the fact that their religion teaches that there are hungry spirits in another world that need to have food left over on your plate at each meal offered to them so they so get too hungry and come make trouble for you.
It seems that the same allowances need to be made for Islam.
-K
Weirdest Koran Qoutes = "Beat your Wife, Worship Adam, Men turned into apes
by Witness 007 48 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Kudra
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Mary
Merry said: Islam does not condone wife-beating
Two words: BULL-SHIT.
it encouarges men and women to love and respect each other, and to be gentle and kind in their dealings;
Ya, kinda like the WTS's view of husbands and wives: The holy writings might 'encourage men and women to love and respect each other', but if you're unlucky enough to be married to a chauvenistic psychopath who enjoys giving you a beating, then you're SOL. You're supposed to "endure it". Islam offers absolutely NO protection for a woman who is abused by her husband/father or any other male figure. In fact, the loons go to the opposite extreme in some cases, such as the Muslim woman who was recently gang raped, and was sentenced to 6 months in jail and 200 lashes for 'being alone' with these guys. It makes no difference that she's not Superwoman and could not possibly have fought them off---this is what your whacky religion/culture teaches.
it does not condone taking the law into your own hands and pronouncing and carrying out a death sentence or other legal punishment, it requires respect for the law and following legal procedure; it focuses always on personal obedience and personal responsibility to Allah, on fairness, on justice, on mercy and charity. Learning to control your temper and not act in anger is taught as being of great value and importance.
Of course it condones it. We see it every day. How many Muslim men beat or even murder their wives and/or daughters for some imagined slight, and are actually punished for it? Merry, it truly boggles the mind how you could escape the clutches of a wacky and chauvenistic cult like the Watchtower, only to join the even wackier and more chauvanistic cult of Islam.
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serotonin_wraith
Kudra,
I'm not demanding Merry should believe in the flying horse, I'm just asking if she does. She can believe whatever she wants. I know many Muslims do believe this, so I'm asking if she does too.
I'll ask Christians if they believe the first man and woman were created 6,000 years ago, and again, it's not demanding. It's asking. (I don't do so in this thread because this is about Islam).
Unless people have something to hide, why would they not like these simple yes/no questions?
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Merry Magdalene
Ok....You know what this means don't you? I'm going to have to write a book...and that's going to take a while...and when I'm done I won't be able to post it here because no one likes to read that long a post (at least I don't), so I will have to post a link and anyone interested in my answers to these questions/issues/challenges (and so much more!) will be able to click on the link and everyone else can just ignore it.
But I have to say something to Mary before I go, cuz she called "bullshit" and I can't let that slide. Nope nope nope.
Again: I was offering my personal understanding of Islam and trying, again, to make a distinction between what I believe Islam teaches according to my personal research (comparing and contrasting what fits and works together against what doesn't) and what some have twisted it to appear to mean.
*ISLAM DOES NOT CONDONE THE EVIL THAT ALL TOO MANY MUSLIMS DO CONDONE*
and you cannot make me say it does. And why would you want to? Do you want it to be evil? Do you want me to be? I understand if you are impatient for change, I am too, but the more you blindly attack from without, the more difficult you make it for those of us within.I have said, and most of the Muslims I "know" (from Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Palestine and Pakistan) have said, that no Muslim countries today are genuinely Islamic and they are not implementing true shari'ah. THE EVIL THAT THEY DO IS NOT ISLAM. You and they can call it that all day and all night long and I will not believe you.
You can slander the Prophet (pbuh) and say that you know the terrible truth about him and that what I believe is just a lovely lie...but why? Why do you prefer to believe and perpetuate the bad while I believe and try to perpetuate the good? Do you think you are helping make things better?
My "friends", who also love Islam and try to learn and to live it to the best of their abilities, are faced with threats from all sides, wherever they live. But they know the difference between what Islam is and what some Muslims believe and do and they do not abandon it because of the actions and opinions of others, including those of their governments. Like me, they just continue trying to do the best they can with what they've got, gently, persistently trying to correct what is in error. And sometimes we argue and debate and disagree, but we do it with love and respect and a desire to get to the truth of the matter.
As to Muslim men--good grief! Based on my personal experiences in matters of non-Muslim love and marriage and family, I could make similar statements about ALL men...but I won't because I still hope it's not true
Thanks for your kind comment, nvr
Going out now to play in the snow with my daughter...
~Merry
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stillajwexelder
trying to correct what is in error.
I am glad you agree there is error in your religion Merry.
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Merry Magdalene
I am glad you agree there is error in your religion Merry.
That's not quite what I said, stilla, and not what I meant either.Nice try though
~Merry
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Mary
But I have to say something to Mary before I go, cuz she called "bullshit" and I can't let that slide. Nope nope nope.Again: I was offering my personal understanding of Islam
Merry, your 'personal understanding of Islam' unfortunately is not the way Islam is either seen or practiced. Actions speak louder than words and both the words of the Koran and the actions of Muslim men say that they most certainly DO condon violence against women, it is practiced on a regular basis, and they offer no protection for Muslim women.
and trying, again, to make a distinction between what I believe Islam teaches according to my personal research (comparing and contrasting what fits and works together against what doesn't) and what some have twisted it to appear to mean.
You sound incredibly like a Witness trying to ignore what the religion really practices by double talk. The fact of the matter is: you have no logical defense of Islam and their barbaric treatment of women, because there isn't one.
*ISLAM DOES NOT CONDONE THE EVIL THAT ALL TOO MANY MUSLIMS DO CONDONE* and you cannot make me say it does.
'THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY DOES NOT CONDONE THE EVIL THAT ALL TOO MANY WITNESSES DO CONDONE* Do you believe that? Of course not---it's a lie. Because in both Islam and with the WTS, doctrine, behaviour protecol, practices, beliefs and how you are to live your life, comes from the top ranking men who claim special communication or understanding of God that the lowly rank and file cannot understand. Both are run by theocracy, neither allow any rational questioning, or personal interpretation. Either do as you're told, or face the consequences.
With that said, if Islam "does not condone the evil that all too many Muslims do condone", they why doesn't the Ayatollah, or the Clerics or any of the Imams make laws to protect their women? These men all have the power to do so, they all practice Islam yet they do not protect their women. Good case in point is the poor woman sentenced to 200 lashes after being gang-raped. This law was made by Muslim men who take the Koran at face value, which causes them to view women as less than nothing, which causes them to come up with these insane laws and doctrines. And Muslims are expected to follow their laws and doctrines, the same as a Witness is expected to follow the laws and doctrines that the Watchtower Society puts out. So please do not try and pull that nonsense that "Islam does not condone" the lousy treatment of women, but it most certainly does, both in the Koran, in their laws, and in their doctrines.
And why would you want to? Do you want it to be evil? Do you want me to be? I understand if you are impatient for change, I am too, but the more you blindly attack from without, the more difficult you make it for those of us within.
No, I don't want Islam to be evil-----but by their own actions they are. Just as the Watchtower Society is. I think it would be to everyone's advantage if Islam or the WTS wasn't evil---but wishing it doesn't make it so.
I have said, and most of the Muslims I "know" (from Turkey, Syria, Egypt, Palestine and Pakistan) have said, that no Muslim countries today are genuinely Islamic and they are not implementing true shari'ah. THE EVIL THAT THEY DO IS NOT ISLAM. You and they can call it that all day and all night long and I will not believe you.
Yes. Apparently unfavorable truth and evidence is as unpopular in Islam as what it is in Dubdumb Land.
You can slander the Prophet (pbuh) and say that you know the terrible truth about him and that what I believe is just a lovely lie...
Merry, Merry, Merry......try reading Islamic history. The founder was a pedophile who married a 6 year old girl but didn't 'consumate' the marriage until she was 9 years old. What a nice guy eh? You sound unerringly like a Witness, who, when shown proof and evidence of how insane their religion is, simply close their minds down and accuse everyone of "telling lies". Dear god in heaven girl, I cannot imagine what prompted you to go down the path you have.
but why? Why do you prefer to believe and perpetuate the bad while I believe and try to perpetuate the good? Do you think you are helping make things better?
I think it's always better to expose lies, the violence that your religion condons and their hypocritical nature rather than close my mind to the truth. Your willful ignorance of Islam is truly astounding for someone who wasn't born into the religion but who actually joined...........
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Dansk
This appears to be taught in mosques where women must worship in a separate area from men,
Not all Muslims worship separately. Sufis don't.
ian
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Merry Magdalene
Well, I've been busy writing that book, but had to check back in.
Mary, I think you are making a mistake when you liken my contrasting the teachings of Islam with what some Muslims say and do to contrasting the teachings of the WTS with what some JWs say and do. IMO a more fair and accurate comparison would be to liken it to contrasting the teachings of Christianity and what some Christians (JWs for instance) say and do. There is no central authority structure for all of Islam, just like neither the Pope nor the governing body of the WTS can speak for all Christianity and Christians nor hold sway over them.
Some will lay blame for the harmful aspects of JW policy and practice on their not being "true Christians" and not following a correct translation and understanding of the Bible. That would seem to be comparable with my defense of Islam and the Qur'an. Others will lay the blame more generally on their attempting to be Christians and follow the Bible in any way, shape or form whatever because they consider both to be crap. I think that would be comparable to how you and many others here feel about Islam and the Qur'an.
I do not condone the punishment of a girl for her own rape, nor the killing of civilians for political purposes, nor the murder of a girl for not wearing hijab and I have very good, solid reasons for believing that Islam as found in the Qur'an and Hadith does not condone it either. Maybe some day you will be able to consider my reasons without the considerable (but understandable) bias which I feel is now blinding you. Your understanding of the way Islam is seen and practiced is very one-sided and seems to be informed only by negative press and the negative personal experience of someone you know. Those are valid reports and experiences but do not take into account the many other experiences and views of Muslims. They just happen to get the most attention because they rightly cause the greatest concern.
Can Islam and the Qur'an be fairly judged on the basis of the actions of any or even all Muslims, anti-Islamic criticisms, and popular opinion? Can anything be properly evaluated this way? Is it not fairer and of more benefit to judge the actions of Muslims, their critics and popular opinion based on a genuine understanding of the Qur'an, the Hadith, pre-Islamic cultures, and the history of conflict between the East and the West. You can only evaluate a tree by its fruit if you know for sure which tree the fruit came from.
I am not the only one who feels and thinks this way about Islam and, fortunately, I am not the only one working to further educate both Muslims and non-Muslims in this regard. Like you, I feel it is of vital importance to expose lies, especially those that protect the powerful and oppress the weak. Wish me luck, eh?
My best wishes to you and my appreciation for your considerable passion which seems to me to be rooted in genuine compassion and unwavering personal integrity. I have long appreciated your presence on this board
Dansk, it's true that not all Muslims segregate men and women, as in the case of Sufis, and there are various degrees of seperation apart from that. There is a very interesting documentary called Me and the Mosque which I highly recommend. Here is a review of it, part of which I will quote:
Me and the Mosque covers itself with scholarly analysis for its hadith-hungry Muslim audience. The likes of ‘Umar Faruq Abd-Allah, ‘Abdullah Adhami and Tariq al- Suwaidan all make appearances to place the barrier in context. The conclusion they drive ho me is that barriers were not found in the Prophet Muhammad’s Mosque , and therefore are not a legitimate tradition. Although they deliver the factual goods seriously, they are wisely played against so me very amusing animation, which bring to life Islamic history and hadith in unexpectedly funny ways. http://www.islamicamagazine.com/issue-15/breaking-down-barriers-with-me-and-the-mosque.html
(Sorry about the unintentional highlighting. A result of my search parameters or something.)
~Merry
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stillajwexelder
Merry do you at least agree your founder Mohammed was a pedophile?