A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses
by Gregor 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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yourmomma
ok, im going to try one more time, here goes:
wow. i will try to address everyone's post. firstly, thanks for the welcoming. I forgot to add something, and that was, the reason i chose to read this board and to post is because this board is not like alot of apostate boards, and I dont think frankly that i can label this board an "apostate board". The apostate boards that I have seen are extreme, going as far as to super impose Christ's face into homosexual acts. And just very extreme in their hatred of the religion. Now granted I know some of you have hatred, however I am not to judge. I will say that I think there is a big difference between someone who is against the organization because they have been hurt by it. I mean there are some people, many people that have been so damaged and hurt by either the local congregation or the society that I frankly wonder what I would be like if I was in their shoes. Im not saying at all that I would agree with people who make it their goal to crush witnesses, however I think the bottom line is that the word "apostate" is overused and misused.
Anyway first response is to "Open Mind": Thanks, and I will try to take them with a grain of salt.
Response to "purplesofa": This is a touchy issue and before I comment I think that its important to realize that alot of peoples experiences are different in how they have been dealt with, or how they themselves have dealt with the org. While I personally so far have not see anyone removed for simply questioning, I am more than willing to consider any information. I think it depends on how you question, and also who you are questioning to. Are you questioning to a reasonable elder, or a strict power trip elder? If you are going to bring up questions to the wrong elder, you will likely get rolled. It made me cringe when I read on this board that someone was showing a sister the child abuse issues and her reaction was to bring a list of questions to the CO. This sister is naive, not that I fault her, because im sure she is not fully aware of many of the problems that will cause. I fear if she does this, unless its a reasonable CO, she will have a faith shattering experience. Also the issue of what you are questioning is an issue. If for instance you truly believe that Jesus is God, or that we all go to heaven, the Witnesses are probably not the religion for you so I dont see any use fighting them over that. There is an issue however if that does happen that you will likely get DF'd and that is a tough situation. I think that if a person truly cannot accept a belief and he is being honest with himself, God sees it and is not getting his ax ready to kill you. Again I think it goes back to what your personal experience has been like. Were your parents liberal or strict, what about the elders in your hall, cool or crazy? I was lucky the first 6 years in my old hall that the elders i would talk to believed the truth stood on its own and they didnt fear any subject and I could ask them any question and have a good talk. What I didnt realize is that it seems that this is becoming more and more rare.
Response to Gopher: You bring up an interesting point. The term "they". I assume you mean that when there is a speaker at a meeting, assembly or convention talking about apostates. As I said, I base my personal view of apostates purely as it is in the Bible. This is a tricky subject and I am not going to be like most witnesses and just judge apostates because it is not my place. I am going to state my personal opinion that there is a difference between a person who has or is discussing bad and hurtful treatment by the org or cong. and a person that gets on a bull horn and hangs out after the assembly and goes off about it. Now I know some of you may feel that is ok, thats fine. We will disagree there. I still will not judge you, I dont agree that this is how to go about it, but as I said, I cant put myself in anyones shoes. Now, another point is that I know there are some witnesses that view an apostate as a person who is a "fault finder". Fault finding is fundamentally different than talking about facts. For instance, in my view it is not apostasy to discuss the sex abuse issues, or the United Nations issues. However again, picketing in Brooklyn with an "F Bethel" sign because of those things crosses the line. Again, this is just my opinion. If you disagree again im not going to judge cause its not my right or place. Another point I want to bring up is that recently I feel this subject is being talked about much more at assemblies and conventions. I remember when I was studying someone left a pamphlet on my car. I read it, disagreed with it, and chucked it. I innocently brought this up to my friend and he went off about how they can trick me and they write a certain way to trick us. I know alot of witnesses feel that way. But I dont.
I dont think there is anything the truth cannot stand up to. i dont want to sound corny because im sure you get alot of that crap by the occasional high and mighty witness that comes on here to condemn you. And by "the truth" i am talking about the truth I PERSONALLY believe about Jehovah and the Bible. Your truth may be different, thats ok, we will all know in the end what God expects or expected from each of us. So im not going to sit here and tell you that your truth is wrong, now I know many, many witnesses do this and i think its wrong and embarrassing. When people talk to me and find out I am a witness they are shocked because I have not personally attacked their beliefs. I mean seriously, even if you or I think someone's beliefs are wrong, how sick is it to tell them to their face that they are wrong and we are right and they are going to die? LOL! Humans are idiots. LOL! (I am also an idiot but in different ways) So anyway I have gotten off track and you can tell I just write with no direction but these are very deep matters. Anyway, bottom line I always take what "they" say and treat it as the Boreans did. Thats me, many witnesses just take everything as law.
Response to nvrgnbk: I have read, alot, for years. I have been reading since day 1. I think that may be why I am different than many JW's. I never accepted the whole "dont ask about God, just sit there and believe" thats what the Catholic Church does. (No offense to anyone Catholic, if you are Catholic I respect your right to believe what you want and I am not judging you.) Now, when I came into the religion, the elders and other witnesses surrounding me agreed with that, and we discussed things all the time. I have always been the type that has to see things for himself. Doubting Thomas was not condemned, you know what im saying? I will say that there seems to be an air about the society at the assemblies and conventions that is more "dont ask, just trust us, Jehovah trusts us". I dont agree with that, however again, i missed the memo that made suggestions from the society law. My time in the JW's has spanned from the 80's, 90's and now, and there is definatly a simplifying or dumbing down of alot of the literature. This can and has been proven scientifically and mathematically.
Now, if they do it sometimes for people with learning problems so they can also learn, that is totally fine, but its to the point where its the majority of stuff written. I mean, the stuff out now in no way even comes close to the publications that were out back years ago. Same with the information that is at the meetings, its for the most part very basic, and while im cool with it being like that sometime, it is spiritually weakening if its like that all the time. Its a tough time right now if the basic stuff doesnt stimulate you spiritually. I think im more old school. I'll also make an observation however, you seem to imply that I am on a journey of some sort, and that a person who is stil a witness could not possibly reach the correct conclusion? I might be reading into that too much. But if thats the case, I think that its impossible to make a judgment like that without knowing a person. I think that the people that put a huge blanket over all witnesses as stupid donkeys in spiritual darkness that follow men is the same type of blanket the watchtower witnesses put on all people who disagree with the society.
Response to Summer, Anti Christ: Thanks!
Response to Paralipomenon: Thanks for the warning. That is a great, great analogy, wow. I think that those who assume I am a stupid donkey for still being in, are similar to those watchtower witnesses that think anyone who is not like them at every second of every meetings taking in everything as 100% gospel is spiritually weak and "worldly". Im not going to judge anyone, and if they judge me for still being a witness, so be it, it wont be the first time or the last someone judges me. Hell, the witnesses i have been around are some of the most judgmental mo fo's I have ever seen! Looks like they have something in common. ;) I just want to say that if you are going to be disrespectful or judgmental, i will likely pass on having a conversation. I have about as much interest in that as i do in talking to a watchtower witness about how turning in your field service slip on time shows how loyal you are to Jehovah.
Response to Open Mind: Thats a valid point. I cant really control what is printed in the WT. The society has in the past made some strong comments, and unfortunately alot of those comments are coming back to bite them. Im not sure who told the society that they had the right to judge. Sadly what you are talking about is something that has turned many people off to the witnesses. I think that we have to ask ourselves if we believe that Jehovah is that type of God and base it on the accounts in the Bible that showed how Jesus dealt with people. I think that one of the gravest errors the society has ever made was their lack of humility and acting somewhat infallible. -
nvrgnbk
and there is definatly a simplifying or dumbing down of alot of the literature. This can and has been proven scientifically and mathematically. Now, if they do it sometimes for people with learning problems so they can also learn, that is totally fine, but its to the point where its the majority of stuff written. I mean, the stuff out now in no way even comes close to the publications that were out back years ago. Same with the information that is at the meetings, its for the most part very basic, and while im cool with it being like that sometime, it is spiritually weakening if its like that all the time. Its a tough time right now if the basic stuff doesnt stimulate you spiritually.
Exactly!
The boredom was killing me.
I was spiritually empty, though extremely busy "theocratically".
I think that the people that put a huge blanket over all witnesses as stupid donkeys in spiritual darkness that follow men is the same type of blanket the watchtower witnesses put on all people who disagree with the society.
Agreed.
I was an elder up until about twenty months ago, give or take a little.
I stepped down, in good standing.
I would never think all Jehovah's Witnesses were dumb.
I wasn't. I know many still in that aren't.
I just think they're wrong.
Plain and simple.
It's not what it purports to be.
I'll also make an observation however, you seem to imply that I am on a journey of some sort, and that a person who is stil a witness could not possibly reach the correct conclusion? I might be reading into that too much. But if thats the case, I think that its impossible to make a judgment like that without knowing a person.
We're all on a journey.
Correct conclusion?
There are more unanswered questions than answered.
But there are certain realities. The striving to see reality, with as much clarity as possible, is what drives me.
Is that what you yearn for too?
My original comments only intended to say that intellectual honesty is rewarded.
Many, not you personally, steer away from intellectual honesty when the shedding of erroneous ideas, as comforting as they may be, becomes too much to bear emotionally.
I really do sincerely wish the best for you as you continue to seek truth, yourmomma.
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moshe
Several times when I tried to question JW's about their contradictory teachings and history, they used a mind stopping technique to turn their brain off. They told me, "This is not a productive conversation", and then closed their bookbags and left. I always wondered, if they had seen a demonstration at an assembly showing the brothers how to weasel out of a potentially embarrassing and painful situation by transfering the problem from them to YOU.
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bobld
Welcome yourmomma:You bring some good Jehovah's Witnesses points.For example".....witnesses are probably not the religion for you" Please explain last sunday's watchtower where the wives would not accompany their religion believing husbands to church or a funeral.Oh, so many things so sad.
Bob
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outofthebox
Welcome yomamma to the Real World
-ootb
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yourmomma
nvrgnbk, yes, boredom and its not just me. I have talked to people who have been going for 40 years and are bored out of their minds, some of these people are old sisters from back in the day that could sit for 4 days in the heat for 8 hours at a convention. so that showed me that its not me, im not crazy. if you think witnesses are wrong, that is your right to your opinion. im not going to try to talk you out of it. as far as intellectual honesty, i always try to keep it real. im not really sure if their are certain subjects you are referring to. i honestly dont care about dates and all the hoopla over generations, 1914, 1919, whatever. it changes often, so i dont care. all i care about is Jehovah and that he is going to come and clean house and fix all of the problems. now again, you might not believe in Jehovah, and so your personal truth is something different. I think in matters of faith its hard to have conversations because faith requires a belief in something you cannot see. And i could go on and on about different ways I feel that Jehovah has blessed me, but if you dont believe in Jehovah that conversation is really not going to get anywhere. plus the "blessing from Jehovah" card is played to death by alot of witnesses, from getting a day off for a convention to getting an extra Big Mac in your bag at the drive through. lol
moshe, wow, "This is not a productive conversation"? lol. Those words have never come out of my mouth. I dont know what you guys were talking about, but I will say that alot of these Witnesses that are blindly following the org and not developing a relationship with Jehovah and not studying the Scriptures deeply dont know how to handle it when debates occur. I mean there is a proper way to debate and discuss. If I disagree with you, im going to show you why. If im not sure if I agree with you, im going to go home and research and come back and show you that you were either right or wrong. Facts are facts. And while absolute truth is sometimes hard to come by, i have no problem walking away agreeing to disagree. Now again, i wasent there, maybe you spooked them, I dont know you so im not sure what went on. Many, many of these witnesses now a days dont want to hear anything bad about the org, even if its true because they cant handle it because they have such weak minds. I will say one more thing however the WORST is when they try to make YOU the problem when you are simply discussing something factual yet negative. I can recall countless times people went to the elders for help and were told they(the victim) were the problem and that regardless of what the problem was, they were simply weak and not going to enough meetings, feild service, etc. Now, im not saying its all elders, but some, and those elders are doing damage. And its not rare either, its common that this happens. There is a epidemic right now of unloving elders serving.
bobld, yes that WT was troubling. Im not sure why but the WT's are just a non stop barrage of quit your job and pioneer, and if you cant pioneer change your circumstances, entertainment, dress, grooming, video games, going to sports games with work mates, or like you said the weddings, etc. its like instead of a deep study of Bible accounts, its just studies of conscience matters. While I will say that they did say that 2 people can come up with 2 different answers and we shouldn't judge people for making a conscience decision, we know full well thats what many witnesses do. Especially since that when the society writes one of these articles you can tell they have a leaning. They arent going to outright say, going to the church for a wedding is wrong, but they will word it in a way to make clear their leaning. It was funny because the first paragraph about it people were going off commenting about how not going was the right thing to do, but then on the next paragraph was about a person who disagreed and did something else and how that person should not be judged. lol. There were alot less comments on that one. I dont know what to tell you about some of these articles, and I fear it may get worse. We are starving for the deep stuff from years ago, but its just not there, you have to dig for it on your own, and most people dont do it, and frankly its not encouraged anymore.
outofthebox, I have always been in the real world. Not all witnesses are stuck in the matrix. but just because i woke up from the matrix doesnt mean that Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible are not longer true. Now, thats my opinion, if you feel differently thats cool. Again, i think witnesses are too quick to judge people for their beliefs so i dont judge people, ever. -
BizzyBee
Welcome, yourmomma! Glad you're here!
Your assessment of JWs, the WTS, this site, etc., seems remarkably balanced. Therefore, we can cut right to the chase: Do you believe that the WTS is God's channel? If you do, how do you reconcile the errors, mistakes and unrealistic attitude displayed by the WTS?
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nvrgnbk
. i honestly dont care about dates and all the hoopla over generations, 1914, 1919, whatever. it changes often, so i dont care
How can you not?
Those dates are inextricably linked to what it means to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses and the message they preach.
BTW, you sound exactly like my father, a sincere and intelligent man that did the best he could with the information he had.
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Confession
Hi yourmama... Good to have you here. First I wanted to comment on something you wrote to Nvrgnbk...
"you seem to imply that I am on a journey of some sort..."
I hope you can try to understand. By your expressions, you remind us so very much of ourselves. And, for many of us, it wasn't very long ago at all that we were saying the same sorts of things you are presently saying.
What strikes me the most is how different your words are from the Watchtower Society's. You, for instance, hold a personal opinion of what an "apostate" is; one different from theirs. You disagree with the Society's official position on allowing yourself to consider the views of those who oppose them. In the 80s (a time when you have said the literature was better than now) they wrote...
Now, what will you do if you are confronted with apostate teaching—subtle reasonings—claiming that what you believe as one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not the truth? For example, what will you do if you receive a letter or some literature, open it, and see right away that it is from an apostate? Will curiosity cause you to read it, just to see what he has to say? You may even reason: 'It won't affect me; I'm too strong in the truth. And, besides, if we have the truth, we have nothing to fear. The truth will stand the test.' In thinking this way, some have fed their minds upon apostate reasoning and have fallen prey to serious questioning and doubt.[Watchtower, March 15, 1986, pages 10-15]
Yet you write...
"I don't think there is anything the truth cannot stand up to."
Certainly I applaud you for your independent thinking, but I'm sure you must know such is strongly condemned by the Watchtower Society. In the January 15th, 1983 Watchtower, there were two articles that dealt precisely with this. Under the subheading, "Avoid Independent Thinking," they wrote...
How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the
counsel that is provided by God's visible organization.
So we see here (as in many other places) that the Society both condemns independent thinking among the flock--and speaks directly to your statement about missing "the memo that made suggestions from the society law." And this is by no means a new sort of policy that's popped up in recent years...
"The first essential for study is the right condition of mind and heart, appreciating that Jehovah grants understanding only to the meek, and not to the stiff-necked. If we have love for Jehovah and for the organization of his people we shall not be suspicious, but shall, as the Bible says, 'believe all things,' all the things that The Watchtower brings out…" [Qualified, 1955, page 156]
I know... There's a way you can navigate through such official positions--and still remain a member of the faith. But, as you have indicated, it involves a degree of caution: being careful what "type" of elder you talk to, avoiding certain sensitive issues, etc. Many of us did this too.
I note in your expressions an interest in explaining yourself--as if trying to help us understand there are different sorts of JWs. You should know that this is unnecessary; you are sharing this board with many people who were right there with you. There's little you can say that will help us understand JWs. We were publishers, pioneers, ministerial servants, elders and Bethelites. And all of the things you're saying right now...we were saying.
But then it happens... If you are person who uses his or her own mind, eventually you figure out that if you hold plenty of differing views, if you recognize the terrible things perpetrated (and not atoned for) by the WTS, if you recognize that what they write is, in fact, merely their own beliefs or "suggestions," you come to see that they are not what they purport to be. They are not the sole channel of communication from God to the planet. The religion they've created cannot be considered "The Truth."
So what's left? A community of friends who have become "captives of a concept." Yes there are many lovely people inside, but they're clinging to a belief that they have "The Truth" because of certain teachings about the Trinity, hellfire and immortality of the soul, and because they've been convinced that they have some type of remarkable, international brotherhood--when in fact the only thing remarkable about it is that it took some of us so long to wake up.
I appreciate the distinction you make between those who've been hurt by the organization and those who might be trying to "crush witnesses." Please consider this perspective. When a person decides they no longer believe in the WTS as the "sole channel," they do not usually have any malice. Indeed there was a time when a JW could leave with dignity, but that ended in the early 80s, when the Society voted to shun any former members who admitted no longer recognizing their organization as The Truth. With some minor vacillations here and there, they have instructed families to effectively cut off communication with such ones. Did those who leave want to create trouble? Certainly not. It was the Watchtower Society who decided they would not tolerate it, creating an adversarial relationship with any who dared not accept their authority.
Now I have never picketed an assembly, nor have I engaged in any similar activity. But I ask you? Which is worse? A religious hierarchy commanding adherents to cut off association and even communication with their beloved family members? Or a sad person, devastated by the loss of his family, publicly expressing grief and righteous indignation over having been abandoned?
Again, good to have you here.