Is it all Rutherfords fault?

by sleepy 66 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  teejay

  Sleepy,

  If you must rely on others to answer this question, you might as well stay connected to the organization. One of their main functions is to do the thinking for millions of people who are unwilling to perform the act for themselves.

  From reading your one post, it seems that you are undecided as to the answer of the question you pose. Did I misread or are you just looking for other opinions, having already made up your own mind? Just curious.

  Peace,
  tj

  p.s. For research I recommend freeminds http://www.freeminds.org/ and Shaun's site at http://www.jwfiles.com/. There are many others, but these should get you well on your way.
• 

  MadApostate

  RR:

  Having done some careful research in this area. I think it is safe to say that the JW's today are the children of one man, Judge Rutherford. Everything the Watchtower is, is due to his practices and theology.

  
  What 120 year old American Corporation is identical to what it was the day that the corporate founder died? Saying that Russell is not the "father" of the current WTS or JWs makes as much sense as saying that Henry Ford and Thomas Edison were not the "fathers" of Ford and GE.

  While Rutherford acknowledgly made significant changes, they were all based on the "culture" established by Russell. That is, "we are right, and everyone else is wrong", and "we are God's chosen organization". These basic premises allowed Rutherford, Knorr, Franz, etc to progressively commit a multitude of sins which noone was allowed to question, ie, "It's our way or the highway" mentality.

  **As an aside, Russell was not the "saint" that WTS historians have for he most part been succesful in portraying. The people who knew and worked with him on a daily basis yielded the best testimony regarding his "true nature".

  From the start of the Watchtower magazine and organization, in the late 1870s and early 1880s, down to 7 or 8 years prior to his death, many of his closest associates, including his own relatives, broke away from him.

  PS: Speaking of Russell's pyramidology teachings, as I previously posted, WHY has the various BS groups failed to publish the numerous photos taken of Russell and his various entourages posing at the Great Pyramid and Sphinx?

  Or, have most of those been destroyed, like those that the WTS possessed?
• 

  DannyBear

  MA,

  Yes, yes and yes. Good solid observations.

  DB
• 

  RR

  MA

  What 120 year old American Corporation is identical to what it was the day that the corporate founder died? Saying that Russell is not the "father" of the current WTS or JWs makes as much sense as saying that Henry Ford and Thomas Edison were not the "fathers" of Ford and GE.

  Russell founded the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of PA. It was JUST a publishing house. not "Jehovah's Organiozation." The 'Bible Students' were already in existence when he formed the corporation. However, it was that corporation AFTER his death that founded the Jehovah's Witnesses.

  From your analogy, I take it if you founded a daycare center, and after your died it became a kiddie porn center, 120 years from YOU would be known as the founder of kiddie porn.

  While Rutherford acknowledgly made significant changes, they were all based on the "culture" established by Russell. That is, "we are right, and everyone else is wrong", and "we are God's chosen organization". These basic premises allowed Rutherford, Knorr, Franz, etc to progressively commit a multitude of sins which noone was allowed to question, ie, "It's our way or the highway" mentality.

  You need to do some homework, Russell never claimed to be God's prophet, he never claimed to be absolutely right. Remember, the various congregations around the world were independent from one another AND the Society. They did not answer to anyone but themselves.

  Russell was not the "saint" that WTS historians have for he most part been succesful in portraying. The people who knew and worked with him on a daily basis yielded the best testimony regarding his "true nature".

  And what was his "true nature?"

  From the start of the Watchtower magazine and organization, in the late 1870s and early 1880s, down to 7 or 8 years prior to his death, many of his closest associates, including his own relatives, broke away from him.

  His only "closest relatives" was his natural sister and she died faithful to his cause. There was a schism in 1909/10 in regards to a doctrinal change he made, but that group is no lonter in existence.

  Speaking of Russell's pyramidology teachings, as I previously posted, WHY has the various BS groups failed to publish the numerous photos taken of Russell and his various entourages posing at the Great Pyramid and Sphinx?

  If you're assuming we're trying to hide them, you're wrong. Why should there be a need to publish them? The pictures only appeared in the convention reports of those days, and the reports have not been reprinted. ALthough there was a book published some years ago which did indeed have those photos republished in them.

  And some of them will probably be published in the history book being worked on.

  ____________________________
  I Still Believe ....
• 

  MadApostate

  RR:

  Russell founded the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of PA. It was JUST a publishing house. not "Jehovah's Organiozation." The 'Bible Students' were already in existence when he formed the corporation. However, it was that corporation AFTER his death that founded the Jehovah's Witnesses.

  
  I sure that you are aware that the original corporate name was Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, and that the name wasn't changed to Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of PA. until many years later.

  However, attempting to make distinctions between the ZWTTS (controlled by Russell) and the so-called "independent" informal groups of "bible students" (most of which elected Russell as Pastor) is nothing but an argument over semantics. The same holds true for arguments trying to make distinctions between modern day JWs and the various corporate entities.

  From your analogy, I take it if you founded a daycare center, and after your died it became a kiddie porn center, 120 years from YOU would be known as the founder of kiddie porn.

  I don't believe anyone will buy your argument that there is as much difference between the WTS in 2001 and in 1916, as the difference that would occur if a corporation that once operated day care centers stopped doing so and began distributing child porn.

  You need to do some homework, Russell never claimed to be God's prophet,...

  No, Russell was smart enough to keep his mouth shut and let his sycophants do it for him.

  Remember, the various congregations around the world were independent from one another AND the Society. They did not answer to anyone but themselves.

  You are as delusional as JWs. As I have already noted, most elected Russell as their Pastor.

  If they were "permitted" to be so "independent", why did "breakaways" occur when theological differences developed?
• 

  MadApostate

  Continuing (interrupted):

  His only "closest relatives" was his natural sister and she died faithful to his cause. There was a schism in 1909/10 in regards to a doctrinal change he made, but that group is no lonter in existence.

  Have you ever heard of C.T.'s wife, Maria Russell, or his step mother, or his half-sibling? Did they remain "faithful" to C.T.?

  Also, what about C.T.'s "adopted" daughter, Rose Ball and her husband?

  AND, my notes even indicate that his sister, whom you say remained "faithful", also broke away in the 1909 "schism". Please prove otherwise!

  If you're assuming we're trying to hide them, you're wrong. Why should there be a need to publish them? The pictures only appeared in the convention reports of those days, and the reports have not been reprinted. ALthough there was a book published some years ago which did indeed have those photos republished in them.

  And some of them will probably be published in the history book being worked on.

  
  My understanding is that numerous photos were taken during Russell's trips to Egypt, and elsewhere. However, photos of him and members of his entourage posing at the Great Pyramid and Sphinx are particularly embarassing to both the WTS and BS. Why haven't such been published recently? Does the GP and Sphinx make poor backgrounds?

  Show the DB how "genuine" you are by posting some of those photos here and now!!!
• 

  sleepy

  Teejay
  in response to your question the reason I sometimes pose questions on this board is to dissucuss points.Even though I may have an opinion on a point I'd like to hear other opinions and consider them also.
  I personaly feel Rutherford ideas were more destructive to peoples lives than Russells.
• 

  sleepy

  RR
  I wouldn't get too excited by ideas about the pyramids of Giza.
  I notce that article you quote makes no mention of the arguments of geologists and archeologists against the great pyramid of Giza being something special.
  At the moment there is a British writer by the name of Graham Hancock who makes great claims about the origens of the sphinx and the 3 pyramids of Giza as well as other ancient monuments around the world.
  Although his claims may not have been the same as Russell and others the idea of the pyramids being something other than what many belive
  roused the attention of many scientists who have writen books in refutation of his claims.
  I'm not saying there is nothing mysterious about the pyramids or that current scientific belief about them is definate.
  I just suggest that the Bible students look at both sides of the issue before they get too carried away.
• 

  teejay

  Hello, sleepy,

  I sometimes pose questions on this board is to dissucuss points.Even though I may have an opinion on a point I'd like to hear other opinions and consider them also. I personaly feel Rutherford ideas were more destructive to peoples lives than Russells.

  I understand and was hoping that you didn't take my question in the wrong way.

  I agree with your assessment of Rutherford. Although Mad Apostate made some valid points, from what I was able to discover in my research is that the movement Russell started was radically altered with the ascendancy of the Judge -- it just was NOT the same organization following Russell's death. One can lay the blame on Russell, but I don't think that truthfully answers your original question.

  The condition and allowable activities of the early Bible Students is probably the most significant reason that led me to the conclusion that present day Jehovah's witnesses don't have the truth.

  later,
  tj

  What luck for rulers that men do not think.

  -- Adolf Hitler
• 

  MadApostate

  TJ:

  Your statement seems to imply that I do not acknowledge the many changes made by JFR:

  I agree with your assessment of Rutherford. Although Mad Apostate made some valid points, from what I was able to discover in my research is that the movement Russell started was radically altered with the ascendancy of the Judge -- it just was NOT the same organization following Russell's death. One can lay the blame on Russell, but I don't think that truthfully answers your original question.

  
  Please slowly read what I said in my original post to this thread:

  What 120 year old American Corporation is identical to what it was the day that the corporate founder died? Saying that Russell is not the "father" of the current WTS or JWs makes as much sense as saying that Henry Ford and Thomas Edison were not the "fathers" of Ford and GE.

  While Rutherford acknowledg(ed)ly made significant changes, they were all based on the "culture" established by Russell. That is, "we are right, and everyone else is wrong", and "we are God's chosen organization". These basic premises allowed Rutherford, Knorr, Franz, etc to progressively commit a multitude of sins which noone was allowed to question, ie, "It's our way or the highway" mentality.

  
  My comments were directed at this "sweepingly broad" statement by RR:

  Having done some careful research in this area. I think it is safe to say that the JW's today are the children of one man, Judge Rutherford. Everything the Watchtower is, is due to his practices and theology.

  Now, if you want to carve out a position on the accuracy of RR's assertion, be my guest.