Is it all Rutherfords fault?

by sleepy 66 Replies latest jw friends

Satanus

TJ
'I'm supporting Pastor' are his exact words. I suppose i used negative words in describing it. Did i overdo it? Maybe.
'Socrates believed that the complete truth lives within each of us and if the proper technique was used, the truth could be drawn out or "educed." I don't know if I agree with that, but if he was right (or CLOSE to right) then we don't need ANY outside source to help us find our way'
This is similar to the way it appears to me. This is why i'm negative on the practice most western religionists have of turning so much control over to their group, their god, their leader. Most of us start out by identifying w groups. First our family, then maybe religious or city/state/nation group. These are phases, i believe are natural, but we should pass through them. We must individually act to reach this internal truth. Each of us has our own path to go to reach it. Teachers and books can help. When the student is ready the teacher arrives. I'm only a student. Those 2 books are broad studies of spirituality. They don't promote any one way. I believe they could be helpful for some one new to the spiritual path concept. After all, a proper technique, as socrates described it, must be found. As long as RR keeps seeking, he will find it, even without these books. The first experience is like going through a door. He has already done that.
BTW do you happen to remember in which book socrates, or whoever quoted him said that?
Thanks SS
MadApostate

RR:
You stated:
Actually, the name was changed to WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PA in 1884 when it was incorporated. Prior to that it was Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society.

As one of the preeminent WBTS historians, maybe you could be so kind as to scan copies of the 1884 "articles of incorporation", which someone of your stature no doubt possesses.
Then, maybe you could also explain why the alleged name change was not mentioned in either of the two Zion's Watch Tower articles below which address the incorporation:
Zion's Watch Tower:
October 1884
LEGAL INCORPORATION
ZION'S WATCH TOWER TRACT SOCIETY, though it has already done a great work, and in the hand of God has been a power in publishing the truth, the influence which is being felt already on both sides of the Atlantic, has never yet had legal incorporation. Nor was such incorporation considered necessary by its friends, it having already all the powers necessary for the present work and similar to that of nine-tenths of other small societies.
But a new phase of the question has arisen. It seems tolerably certain that some of the saints will be in the flesh during a great part at least of the "time of trouble," and if so, there will be need of printed matter, tracts, etc., as much then, perhaps, as now, and possibly will be more heeded, for when the judgments of the Lord are "in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." (Isa. 26:9.) Should those at present prominently identified with the work not be the last to be "changed," some interruption of the work might result; but this may be obviated by having a legal standing, granted by a State Charter.
Another matter also has been considered: Two or more who had already contributed to the funds of the society, suggested that as age was coming on and opportunities for earning a living decreasing they could not now give more largely without endangering penury and leaving themselves a burden on their friends, which they could not see to be the Lord's will; yet they are desirous that in some way they might be able to put the Lord's money (consecrated to Him) into His work. This naturally suggested the idea that there might be many others similarly situated and with similar ideas. Such moneys or other property donated by "Will" to the society it might be unable to receive or dispose of, unless it had a charter.
From all these considerations it was deemed best to apply for a charter; and this has been done. We expect that it will be granted without delay, and in that event you will learn more concerning the matter in our next issue.

Zion's Watch Tower:
January 1885
ZION'S WATCH TOWER TRACT SOCIETY
A charter of incorporation for Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society was granted December 13th, 1884. In accordance with the same, Certificates have just been sent to each contributor to the Fund, whose donations (all told) amounted to Ten Dollars or more. Each ten dollars representing one voting share.
The certificates are neatly printed and bear the Society's seal upon the face. On the reverse side is a brief statement of the object and past efforts of the Society, the time and mode of electing its officers, etc. The Incorporators are the Directors, named below, from among whom the officers indicated have just been elected for the year 1885:
DIRECTORS:
C. T. RUSSELL, Pres.,
M. F. RUSSELL, Sec. and Treas.,
W. C. McMILLAN,
W. I. MANN, Vice Pres.,
J. B. ADAMSON,
J. F. SMITH.
It was my understanding that the name of ZWTTS was not changed until ~1896 to Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, with "of Pennsylvania" not being added until ~1955/6. But then, you are the WBTS history expert. I honestly would appreciate your correcting my errors. It goes without saying that documentation wold be appropriate.
Thanks!
teejay

Saint,
'I'm supporting Pastor' are his exact words.
I noticed where RR said that. An... 'unusual' (?) comment, but hey, it ain't me, ya know what I'm sayin'!?
Me: 'Socrates believed that the complete truth lives within each of us and if the proper technique was used, the truth could be drawn out or "educed." I don't know if I agree with that, but if he was right (or CLOSE to right) then we don't need ANY outside source to help us find our way'
You: This is similar to the way it appears to me. This is why i'm negative on the practice most western religionists have of turning so much control over to their group, their god, their leader. Most of us start out by identifying w groups. First our family, then maybe religious or city/state/nation group. These are phases, i believe are natural, but we should pass through them. We must individually act to reach this internal truth. Each of us has our own path to go to reach it. Teachers and books can help.
As I said (and I'm thankful that you didn't take the view I stated earlier in the wrong way), I agree with you.
One of the profound lessons I personally learned from my involvement with the WTS (even if it DID take me nearly half of my projected total lifespan of 80yrs) is that I don't need someone else telling me what truth is. My vision, my viewpoint, my opinion, is as valid (is even as trustworthy) as anyone else's.
That doesn't mean that I'm always right or that my views can't be amended or adjusted based on new information. But following another individual or group in a spiritual/cosmic/philosophical context is something I can't see me doing ever again. It is a truth that I hope to communicate to my daughter one day.
Btw, I like your definition of how we move through ever-widening circles of affiliation. Or should. Many don't. They are content with the understanding found within their own family, their own culture, their own race, their own national origin, their own religion. Genuine truth seekers eventually realize that ultimate truth can be and usually is found in many many places irrespective of the limits we might place on it.
do you happen to remember in which book socrates, or whoever quoted him said that?
The name of our textbook is The Western Humanities, Fourth Edition by Roy T. Matthews and F. DeWitt Platt; Mayfield Publishing. If you like, you might want to look over this cite: http://www.iusb.edu/~mwashbur/p100/socrates1.html. It goes into some detail into the Socratic method of teaching.
About half-way down there is this heading: Socrates describes himself as an intellectual midwife and says that the respondent is pregnant with wisdom. That, in a nutshell, describes what our prof said about what Socrates believed is true about everyone.
peace,
tj
...................................
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say. -- Marshall McLuhan
MadApostate

RR:
In an earlier post, you said:
His only "closest relatives" was his natural sister and she died faithful to his cause.

So, I helped you remember Russell's ex-wife, his step-mother, his half-sister, his "adopted daughter", and his "son-in-law", all of whom rejected his teachings at some point in time. I believe these people qualify as "close relatives".
As for Russell's sister, again my notes indicate that she left during the 1909 schism. If my notes are wrong, why is it so difficult for YOU, the preeminent WBTS historian, to provide evidence that Land did not break from Russell in 1909?
Based on your record thus far, I'll stick with my notes until you or someone else provides evidence to the contrary.
RR

I'll tell you what Mad, you stick with your notes, you are the so called expert, and you can read my notes when their published.
____________________________
I Still Believe ....
MadApostate

RR:
I'll tell you what Mad, you stick with your notes, you are the so called expert, and you can read my notes when their published.

Is this the best response we can expect of the soon-to-be published Bible Student's historian?
I provide two ZWT articles which contradict your earlier statements, and your only response is to pull out your credentials?
This track record doesn't speak well for how accurate we can expect your book to be.
It appears like you are just preparing the Bible Student's version of the Proclaimers book.
-The Society is just a printing company.
-Russell had no de facto authority over "independent" BS groups.
-Russell not the fds.
ROTFLMAO!!!
RR

Well, you have yet to .....aww, why bother, why waste my consecrated time with you? You're not even worth acknowledging .... see ya!
____________________________
I Still Believe ....
MadApostate

RR:
You stated:
Again, I ask, what purpose would it serve the Bible Students to publish photos of Russell during his world tour? These photos can be seen in the original Convention Reports for those years.

Earlier, you posted that Bible Students were not trying to hide the photos of Russell posing at the Great Pyramid and Sphinx. Well, your refusal to post such here certainly isn't helping to prove such. Your suggestion that the readers of this db simply go look at the Convention Reports in everyone's personal library certainly makes sense.
It seems to me that you WANT those photos for your own means, and I am not going to scan my library and support those needs. Had you been honest and just aske me to send you some photos without this charade, I may have done so. So, keep "Anxiously awaiting."
Me thinks you are more than a little paranoid. You must be the postman I saw on TV delivering mail while wearing a full-body condom.
What charade or dishonesty has been affected? I asked you to post the "Russell-at-the-Pyramids" photos a couple weeks back, and you ignored my request.
Since you raised the pyramid issue in this thread, I renewed my request.
If you have no fear of the Russell-Pyramidology issue, then post some photos.
I hope that you don't think that readers aren't seeing through YOUR CHARADE.
MadApostate

RR:
Well, you have yet to .....aww, why bother, why waste my consecrated time with you? You're not even worth acknowledging .... see ya!

I guess you couldn't finished that sentence because, YES, I have disprove several of your assertions.
AND AGAIN, your unsubstantiated remarks elevate your own status ("my consecrated time"), while positioning my own status with respect to yours as "not even worth acknowledging".
Hmmmmmmmm???
sleepy

Maddy apostate I was interested in this quote from the 1884 Watchtower;
"Another matter also has been considered: Two or more who had already contributed to the funds of the society, suggested that as age was coming on and opportunities for earning a living decreasing they could not now give more largely without endangering penury and leaving themselves a burden on their friends, which they could not see to be the Lord's will; yet they are desirous that in some way they might be able to put the Lord's money (consecrated to Him) into His work. This naturally suggested the idea that there might be many others similarly situated and with similar ideas. Such moneys or other property donated by "Will" to the society it might be unable to receive or dispose of, unless it had a charter. "
It sruck me that if he was refering to himself as one of the two who were to be left short of money if they carried on useing there funds to run the society ,that it was very soon that he ran out of money.
About 5 years.
Here's a wild assumption off the top of my head.
Russelll starts the Bible society runs quickly out of money , he then has to rely on others for his income and does this throught the watchtower society .
This means that doctrines have to change when not fulfilled as to keep a loyal following to keep him housed and fed.
What do you think?

Is it all Rutherfords fault?

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