Is it all Rutherfords fault? (page 3)

MadApostate

RR:

Just a reminder. I saw where you posted on another thread earlier today, so you must have forgotten to post those "Russell at the Pyramids" photos, which Bible Students are NOT trying to hide.

Anxiously awaiting such!

Thanks.

RR

MA

I sure that you are aware that the original corporate name was Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society, and that the name wasn't changed to Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of PA. until many years later.

Actually, the name was changed to WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PA in 1884 when it was incorporated. Prior to that it was Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society. The name of the Journal was Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence and was later changed to The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ Presence.

However, attempting to make distinctions between the ZWTTS (controlled by Russell) and the so-called "independent" informal groups of "bible students" (most of which elected Russell as Pastor) is nothing but an argument over semantics. The same holds true for arguments trying to make distinctions between modern day JWs and the various corporate entities.

The electing of Russell as Pastor was just a gesture of faith, it did not mean that Russell could walk into any ecclesia and start barking orders. It simply meant that they he was an honorary elder in the class. He was elected by the various ecclesia's during their business meetings when they elected their officers, however, some years Russell was elected, and other years he was not.

No, Russell was smart enough to keep his mouth shut and let his sycophants do it for him.

oh, so damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Makes sense!

If they were "permitted" to be so "independent", why did "breakaways" occur when theological differences developed?

Figure it out. IT was BECAUSE of their independence that they COULD breakaway, or just pick up and leave. Actually, they didn't have to leave, because they were not members of the Watchtower Society or affiliated with them in anyway, accept for their being in har,opny with what was published, once the Society began to publish things that the Bible Students were not in harmony with, they abandoned the Society as a publishing house and formed several of their own.

Have you ever heard of C.T.'s wife, Maria Russell, or his step mother or his half-sibling? Did they remain "faithful" to C.T.?

Maria Russell separated from Russell in 1897 and in 1907 she was granted LEGAL separation. Russell's Father remarried, and had a daughter, she took care of Maria. However Maria outlived her. As to his step mother, there is nothing to indicate she was ever a Bible Student. Mria Russell did not disagree with his theology, it was his character she disagreed with.

Also, what about C.T.'s "adopted" daughter, Rose Ball and her husband?

what ... are you writing a book? I'll enlighten you as this is no secret. Rose Ball, became Rose Ball Henninges and moved to Australia, where in 1909, when some doctrinal changes occurred, they separated and formed the New Covenant Believers. ALthough this group exist today, they resemble NOTHING of the 1909 group. They are a hodgepodge of beliefs, some trinitrians,hellfire, etc. The original group accepted most of what Russell taught up to 1909.

AND, my notes even indicate that his sister, whom you say remained "faithful", also broke away in the 1909 "schism". Please prove otherwise!

You need to check your notes, but you're wrong.

My understanding is that numerous photos were taken during Russell's trips to Egypt, and elsewhere. However, photos of him and members of his entourage posing at the Great Pyramid and Sphinx are particularly embarassing to both the WTS and BS. Why haven't such been published recently? Does the GP and Sphinx make poor backgrounds?

Again, I ask, what purpose would it serve the Bible Students to publish photos of Russell during his world tour? These photos can be seen in the original Convention Reports for those years.

Just a reminder. I saw where you posted on another thread earlier today, so you must have forgotten to post those "Russell at the Pyramids" photos, which Bible Students are NOT trying to hide.
Anxiously awaiting such!

It seems to me that you WANT those photos for your own means, and I am not going to scan my library and support those needs. Had you been honest and just aske me to send you some photos without this charade, I may have done so. So, keep "Anxiously awaiting."

____________________________
I Still Believe ....

TR

RR,

What is it really that keeps you supporting an ancient relic of a bizarre religion?

TR

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
—Edmund Burke

sleepy

I'd like to see these pictures of Russell in Eygpt if they exist.
Why did they go there?
The society always seems to put the pyramid idea into a minor role in the history of the society.But was it such a minor thing to Russell.
At the time there were many writers speculating about the pyramids at Giza and a lot of interest in the subject.
I think there was a guy called Edgar Case or something similar , who was very big in the feild but he claimed to hear vocies from the grave whom he claimed were ancient egyptians.
Exactly what part did the pyramid play in Russells beliefs?

RR

TR

What is it really that keeps you supporting an ancient relic of a bizarre religion?

Plain and simple. I'm NOT supporting the Watchtower Society, I'm supporting Pastor Russell. Why? Because I believe he was right in many aspects of Truth.

____________________________
I Still Believe ....

Satanus

RR

I guess you still need someone visible to plod after. Heaven forbid that you would have a spiritual experience for yourself, being able to make your own judgements, think for yourself, have your own pipeline to god, etc.

Group think is for kids.

SS

RR

agh, but I did have a spiritual experience,while IN the Society which is why I left. I didn't get kicked out and "whoa is me, what shall I ever do" and pick the next best thing theology. I carefully weighed everything, I researched all the claims and made my assessment. Unlike some, I did not throw the baby out with the bathwater!

____________________________
I Still Believe ....

Satanus

RR

Well and good for you. Really. But, a spiritual experience doesn't validate your theology. People of many different religious backgrounds have these experiences. They generally force them to fit somewhere in their theology. If it's a jw, it's anointing. If it's a pentle it's being born again. Catholic, a step toward sainthood.

If you would like to read about it, mysticism by evelyn underhill and varieties of religious experience by william james are quite good.

It's really the first step on a stairs which probably has no top.

SS

teejay

Hey fellas, I'd like to interject one thought, and then I'll happily return to the peanut gallery.

Saint, you sort of condescended by saying to RR: "I guess you still need someone visible to plod after. Heaven forbid that you would have a spiritual experience for yourself, being able to make your own judgements, think for yourself..."

I understand and basically agree with your meaning -- it just didn't sound very good. From what I've read, I don't think RR is "plodding." He's just found someone whose outlook matches his own.

While seeming to chastise him for, more or less, not thinking for himself, you mention two books that you felt might help RR reach a higher level of... whatever. Seems that we all have our preferred sources. Nothing wrong with that.

In the Humanities class I'm taking, I've learned that Socrates believed that the complete truth lives within each of us and if the proper technique was used, the truth could be drawn out or "educed." I don't know if I agree with that, but if he was right (or CLOSE to right) then we don't need ANY outside source to help us find our way.

The truth lies within.

Peace y'all,
tj

teejay

Sorry, MA. I just saw your note addressed to me.

As I said before, I think you made some valid points, but based on what I know, I happen to think RR made better ones. His analogy of one who starts a daycare only to have a later owner/operator to be found guilty of child abuse was very fitting and applicable to the WTS. Of course, I'm speaking from of a position of incomplete knowledge, but that's never stopped me from having an opinion!

Hell, I think you BOTH know waaay more about Russell and that time period relative to the organization than I do.

I was not aware that Russell had more or less ruled out the possibility that other Christians would not or could not have Divine Blessing in their religious activities. That is an entirely new thought. If it's true, then I see your point. If it was instilled in the minds of early 20th century Bible Students that they and they alone "had the truth," then what followed can indeed be laid at the feet of Russell. It wouldn't have mattered who was in control or what he did. I see your point.

Peace,
tj

Is it all Rutherfords fault?

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