The truth is that noone can prove anything! So to be a JW you have to believe as a fact that which cannot be proven along with a whole body of other knowledge which relies upon it. There is therefore some considerable 'make believe' upon which ones whole life is based and used to judge other people. Any JW has given up their opinion completely unless of course they retain it with an agenda which ensures they gain something they desire from the general organisation they are in - which sorta defeats the whole object of being in it anyhow. Living a desireable charade maybe whilst letting others know they are bird food.
How do angels and demons influence mankind?
by onacruse 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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journey-on
citation needed
.....sigh....
ROTFL!
For sure, these perspectives are not for everyone. But scoffing at them rather than researching the serious studies that have been
done to validate them, doesn't advance anything. I'm not in the mood to cut and paste and quote metaphysical ideas as they relate
to scientific studies. Any seeker can do their own study. To each his own, as they say.
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inkling
And the really loaded question: "Why did God give them this ability?"
Think about it, what NON-Evil purpose does possession serve? It strikes me as a rather odd thing for God to create angels with the ability to invade a human brain and take over.Ok, I see where you are coming from, but sadly this argument holds no water.
(this was pointed out to me by a friend) Let me reword the argument to show
the fallacy:And the really loaded question: Why did god give humans the ability to strangle someone?
What possible NON-Evil purpose would such throat-strangling ability serve?Manual dexterity and strength is the base ability, clenching someones neck is an abuse of that ability.
Your whole argument assumes that the people-possesing is the BASE ABILITY.
Perhaps basic freedom to manipulate molecules is the base ability, and there are
millions of darkly creative ways to abuse this mechanism.Don't get me wrong, on a larger scale I am totally on your side on this issue,
but I just think it deserves more solid argumentation.[inkling]
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LtCmd.Lore
[citation needed]
.....sigh....
Is this a problem?
And the really loaded question: Why did god give humans the ability to strangle someone?
What possible NON-Evil purpose would such throat-strangling ability serve?Manual dexterity and strength is the base ability, clenching someones neck is an abuse of that ability.
Your whole argument assumes that the people-possesing is the BASE ABILITY.
Perhaps basic freedom to manipulate molecules is the base ability, and there are
millions of darkly creative ways to abuse this mechanism.Hmm, good point....
Which brings us all the way back to the main question of: "How do they do it?" I suppose that should be answered first.
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inkling
citation needed
.....sigh....
ROTFL!
For sure, these perspectives are not for everyone. But scoffing at them rather than researching the serious studies that have been
done to validate them, doesn't advance anything. I'm not in the mood to cut and paste and quote metaphysical ideas as they relate
to scientific studies. Any seeker can do their own study. To each his own, as they say.
Ok, I was laughing at the wikipedia-referencing joke, not at you. Please don't take offense, as none was intended [inkling]
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VoidEater
Why did god give humans the ability to strangle someone?
What possible NON-Evil purpose would such throat-strangling ability serve?The analogy doesn't hold. Demon possession is of fairly limited and specific use, and creating this supernatural ability in a supernatural being seems, shall we say, a little short sighted. Certainly Jehovah could easily have created man with a possession-free shield. But since he didn't do so much else that he coulda/shoulda, giving his first born children such power of his lesser children is certainly predictable.
There may be very good reasons for one man to strangle another man, perhaps in self defence. And since each hypothetical man in this case is the equal of the other, we can see them as being put on a level playing field.
Not so with demon possession. Demons are incomparably stronger than any man. Giving them possessing power, and man no actual defence against it, makes the analogy inappropriate. God gave bear teeth, to - must we conclude that flesh-rending capabilities of bears are a misuse of their power?
Perhaps the real conclusion I should draw from this analogy is that God creating anything, including demons, is a bizarre thought - you can never rationalize what God did or didn't do because the context is utterly non-human, perhaps.
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inkling
Which brings us all the way back to the main question of: "How do they do it?" I suppose that should be answered first.
I Agree, and it is a very good question. When speculating on something that has really no anchoring evidence to start from, it is almost impossible NOT to make logical fallacies when talking about it. I honestly found your original question compelling until my friend (who is both smarter and more cynical than I am) pointed out the problem. A related question would be why would God ALLOW them to misuse such power. Clearly, God must draw the line somewhere, because he stops demons from outright killing people, right? There must be some spiritual laws. But I suppose even that is a unwarranted assumption. Maybe the spiritual realm is not bound by the logic of this one, and so on... On the question of free will... I agree that an outright possession would be a clear violation of a humans free will, and therefore whatever they did under such possession would no be held against them is a cosmic sense, even if they are judged and perhaps killed as a danger to humanity. (serial killers?) To my thinking, the most internally consistent model for "demon influence" would be the "Ouija board model"- YOU, out of free will, initiate contact, and all they do is talk to you. They will lie and slander and manipulate, but it is by your own free will that you take their advice, or allow a "evil seed" of their suggestion to grow in your thoughts. Obviously this is speculative to the point of likely fictional. Ouija boards are easily debunked by simply covering the eyes of the users. Gibberish follows. Of course you can then say "well, the demons see out the eyes of the human user" or "demons are sneaky don't want to be caught be scientists" and the like, but I am very skeptical. I have never been presented with compelling evidence that a Ouija board has even once offered a bit of information that was not known or invented by the present human users. I think it likely this whole conversation is a exercise is myth-making, but I am still enjoying it. [inkling]
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myelaine
LtCmd.Lore...
"Which brings us all the way back to the main question of: "How do they do it?" I suppose that should be answered first...."
...answering the questions what, why, where, and then, how? is important...
where? well lets assume they(demons) are here. (because this is not presently God's kingdom on earth)
what? they(demons) use various ways to lead people into other pursuits that errode the presence of God (and the faith of the saints) from everyday life.
why? their purpose is to take as many souls of the children of God into their hell.(satan is a murderer)
how? they ultimately mislead people into not thinking/believing in [a] God of Salvation.(which is the main cause of confusion. imo)
...almost forgot...who?...
love michelle
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inkling
they(demons) use various ways to lead people into other pursuits that errode the presence of God...
Name a few perhaps?
how? they ultimately mislead people into not thinking/believing in [a] God of Salvation
This is a "what", not a "how".
HOW do they mislead people? A person is born, and lives, and one day they are misled by a demon...
what exactly HAPPENED? What is the mechanism that interacted with our world? Cause and effect... what does the chain of events look like, traced all the way back to the "first cause" of the misleading: the demon (or Satan)[inkling]
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NewYork44M
According to my ex-wife I have demons flying through my head. From her perspective so do all apostates. She absolutely believes that demons are sitting our heads and driving us around like a pilot flys an airplane. The influence is direct and literal.