For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead... (page 4)

Chalam

Hi Narkissos,
Thanks for your post.

"You know, ex-JWs are the worst possible audience for your kind of talk. Been there, done that."

In some ways I agree! However, should the fact that the WTO has spun the JWs a line of lies and twisted truths preclude me from saying what I believe?

"E.g. for one text suggesting that "God does not change His mind" there are several which clearly state the opposite (the Flood, Jonah, etc.). And of course you know that too."

I agree! There are several times in the OT where God seemingly changes His mind. The biggest problem with the OT for me was that often God seems judgmental and wrathful but in the NT He is loving.

"Your superiority over JWs is that you seem to be able to quote two or three verses in a row instead of one."

Thanks. If you need more verses then I will be happy to supply them. For any important belief there are many verses in the Bible. So concentrate on these first.

So I challenge you to pray to Jesus or The Holy Sprit (many verses available ;) ) and as Him to start to reveal the truths as you read your Bible?

Just make sure you read any other translation other than the NWT. Many of the pertinent verses have been doctored, often in subtle ways but very damaging ways in the NWT.

Use one online if you do not have one

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=31

I advise starting in the NT as that is what applies directly to us and is where the full story is revealed to us (verse available!).

Happy reading! :)

All the best,
Stephen

Narkissos

I agree! There are several times in the OT where God seemingly changes His mind. The biggest problem with the OT for me was that often God seems judgmental and wrathful but in the NT He is loving.

Too bad your reference for "God does NOT change his mind" was taken from the OT too (Malachi; you could have quoted from Numbers 23 or 1 Samuel 15 as well).

That aside, how do you know that God doesn't only SEEM "loving" and IS not ultimately "judgemental and wrathful" -- if not by arbitrary choice betweenBible texts?
(Don't tell me "because the NT comes later" -- the "loving God" is already in Jonah and the "judgemental and wrathful" is still in Revelation, for instance.)

Apparently you didn't get my point about "two or three verses in a row," maybe because I used the wrong English expression. I meant consecutive verses in the same passage, not from different chapters / books.

That's what context (vs. the "patchwork" method) is about. Your quotation of a few verses in Job 14 would mislead the reader into thinking that Job believes in resurrection whereas the whole chapter shows the very opposite.

Of course you're not supposed to know, but I have left JWs over 20 years ago and I happen to have spent more time studying the Bible after than before that.

M.J.

Thanks Nark for pointing out that fact from Job. I knew it was accepted that Job was written before belief in the resurrection had established itself among the Hebrews, but hadn't really analyzed the whole context of that verse.

Chalam

Hi Nakissos,
"Of course you're not supposed to know, but I have left JWs over 20 years ago and I happen to have spent more time studying the Bible after than before that."

So how are you getting on after all this study? Where has it taken you?

I have been studying for a couple of years and as you can tell, I find it useful for life application and my relationship with God.

So what about asking the Holy Spirit for guidance? Have you tried that?

All the best,
Stephen

Narkissos

M.J.

Job was written before belief in the resurrection had established itself among the Hebrews

Actually the belief never "established itself" (i.e. as a doctrine common to all) in Judaism prior to the 66-73 AD war and the ensuing exclusive Pharisaic control over the "Jewish" label. Even the NT attest that the Sadducees (the priestly aristocracy which in a sense constituted the most "official" part of Judaism in the 1st century) did not believe in resurrection. It was not likely to be a popular doctrine in the most educated layers of Judaism of the Hellenistic diaspora either.

Whether "Job" was "before" or "against" it is still an open question.

Stephen,

Last week I have put something in the "biography" part of my JWD "profile" which might answer some of your questions.

Let's say it has "taken" me away from dogmatic Christianity.

As to asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance, technicalities aside, this is common to every Christian denomination and sect I know, including Jehovah's Witnesses. And of course I have done it many times.

Everyone's path is different and you don't know where yours will eventually lead you.

M.J.

Yes, the true history of Israel really pokes holes in the doctrinal uniformity concept promoted by the WTS.

Chalam

Hi Narkissos,
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of you biog-a fascinating read.

"As to asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance, technicalities aside, this is common to every Christian denomination and sect I know, including Jehovah's Witnesses. And of course I have done it many times."

That is interesting about the Spirit and the JWs. Not having been one but having looked into their beliefs I understand that they say the Spirit is not a person but God's 'active force' due to their own 'translation' of Genesis 1:2 (good to get the mistruths in as early as possible!) etc.

So are you saying the JWs pray to The Holy Spirit? My understanding was they didn't pray to Jesus who they regard as a person, let alone the Spirit who they don't.

Once again, I suggest you ask Him, literally for revelation when reading the Bible. WIthout it you can study a lifetime and not learn a single thing in God's eyes.

"Everyone's path is different and you don't know where yours will eventually lead you."

This isn't meant to be flippant but as you know, my faith is in the Bible and that what is says it true.

Matthew 7 (New International Version)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

So there are two roads in life, one that leads to life and one to death.

As it says a few verses later

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So are you know by Him or will you say "Lord Lord" on that day and He will say "I never knew you"?

All the best,
Stephen

truthsetsonefree

The JWs believe that the Bible is some cohesive book. They believe that what is said in one place is backed up in another. That creates a ton of confusion for these people and a lot of debate which can never be conclusively resolved.

Isaac Carmignani

http://www.myspace.com/isaaccarmignani

Narkissos

I understand that they say the Spirit is not a person but God's 'active force' due to their own 'translation' of Genesis 1:2 (good to get the mistruths in as early as possible!) etc.

Correct. Even funnier is the fact (if I remember correctly) that they regularly translate ruach / pneuma by "spirit," not "active force," in the rest of the NWT... Go figure.

So are you saying the JWs pray to The Holy Spirit? My understanding was they didn't pray to Jesus who they regard as a person, let alone the Spirit who they don't.

You're right, and I didn't mean that, I answered your question about "asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance" which does not imply praying to the Holy Spirit. I suppose you don't mean that asking the Father for the Holy Spirit's guidance would not "work" -- since this is the dominant scriptural pattern.

Btw, this is a good example of what I meant by "technicality". Assuming that you must have the "correct" understanding of what/who the Holy Spirit is before you receive its/his guidance would reflect the same kind of sectarian bigotry as some JWs show when they imply that if you don't call God "Jehovah" he won't hear you.

I thank you for your "suggestion" though.

Btw, did you notice that "calling Jesus Lord instead of doing his Father's will" (the best way to be "locked out" according to Matthew 7) slightly resembles the way of salvation Paul recommends in Romans 10 (confessing Jesus as Lord rather than doing the works of the Law," compare Matthew 5:17ff)?

moshe

Speaking as a Jew, there is no concensus among Jews as to what happens after death. The Bible does not hold out much hope for any life after death in the Hebrew sciptures, in my opinion. A bodily resurrection seems less likely than a spiritual afterlife, too.

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

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