Hi LouBelle,
"The apostle Paul also said that he desired to put off this body to be with the father but for the sake of the congregation he didn't - so even if you were to take the bible literally this would mean his ""something or other (soul/spirit) would continue living""
I agree. He wasn't saying he would rather be dead so he could lie in the ground 'conscious of nothing' but go to be with the Lord!
2 Corinthians 5:8 (King James Version)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Same deal for one of the criminals at the crucifixion
Luke 23:42-44 (New International Version)
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]"
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus' Death
Regards,
Stephen
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...
by Chalam 40 Replies latest jw friends
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Chalam
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Chalam
Hi justhuman,
I agree totally.
Did you like the Job 14 explanation of Ec 9:5?
As you mention, one verse for a whole doctrine is very dangerous. The JWs will have you thinking you lie dead in the ground 'knowing nothing' due to a single verse and the Mormons would have you baptizing your dead relatives to get them saved over another.
Regards,
Stephen -
AlphaOmega
This translation helped shed some light on things with a JW that I spoke with - it stumped him
Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 CEV
[19]
Like animals we breathe and die, and we are no better off than they are. It just doesn't make sense.[20]
All living creatures go to the same place. We are made from earth, and we return to the earth.[21]
Who really knows if our spirits go up and the spirits of animals go down into the earth?JWs act as if Ecclesiastes had all the answers, but the point was that he DIDN'T - he was searching like everyone else.
With regards to the Body being equal to the soul how do JWs expain these verses ?
[Ecclesiastes 7:26 CEV]
Here is what I discovered: A bad woman is worse than death. She is a trap, reaching out with body and soul to catch you. But if you obey God, you can escape. If you don't obey, you are done for.[Matthew 10:28 CEV]
Don't be afraid of people. They can kill you, but they cannot harm your soul. Instead, you should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul in hell.[1 Thessalonians 5:23 CEV]
I pray that God, who gives peace, will make you completely holy. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept healthy and faultless until our Lord Jesus Christ returns. -
Chalam
Hi AlphaOmega,
Amen! Excellent points.
The WTO will likely change these verses in a new edition of the NWT just as they have made many other changes so far :(
The Bible says we are made in God's image.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.
And it says we have a body, a soul and a spirit.
Draw your own conclusions.
Regards,
Stephen -
GoddessRachel
Interesting thread. I've often wondered about the verses in Ecclesiastes that JW's use to describe what happens when you die. Every time I pick up a Bible now I have a negative association to my time as a Witness and thusly haven't (yet) been able to read it without my Watchtower blinders on. Someday I will. Someday.
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Chalam
Hi GoddessRachel,
Thanks for your post.
Yes you need to forget the NWT and all the material you have which explains it. The NWT is full of changes to things of paramount importance such as what happens when we die, salvation, Jesus etc.
The trouble is that teaching stays with one for far longer than the physical books. That is why I started the thread. So many ex Witnesses on here who are well aware of the the 'cult status' of the WTO but still carry with them some or many false beliefs from the organization.
So get another Bible, any one will do save the NWT. Try them for free here
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=31
You could go with a modern translation like the New International Version or try a modern paraphrase like The Message if you like. I really enjoyed that one.
Most of all ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand what you read.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Regards,
Stephen -
Zico
The text in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6 is a Sadducean view that not only contradicts Jesus' own viewpoint, but is even mocked by him. Ecclesiastes 9:6 clearly says there will never be a resurrection, a scripture JWs ignore, the scripture right after the one that the dead are conscious of nothing. It's a classic example of how the Society pick and choose what scriptures they like and form their doctrines around it no matter how clear the bias.
AO,
One of the songs in the Jehovah's Witness song book is actually based on Matthew 10:28, with the chorus 'Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the soul' It's an odd song to have in their book, as it highlights an obvious contradiction, and often leads to questioning after it's sung at meetings. The explanation I've usually heard, is that the soul here refers to Jehovah's memory of each person. Don't fear the person who can kill you, as Jehovah will remember you, and resurrect you in Paradise Earth. Like many of their explanations, it's not really adequate, the obvious question this would lead to is, how can Jehovah destroy his memory of you?
I'd expect the Society have tried to explain this scripture in their literature, though I don't have access to a WT library CD where I could check. -
Chalam
Hi Zico,
"The text in Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6 is a Sadducean view that not only contradicts Jesus' own viewpoint, but is even mocked by him. Ecclesiastes 9:6 clearly says there will never be a resurrection, a scripture JWs ignore, the scripture right after the one that the dead are conscious of nothing. It's a classic example of how the Society pick and choose what scriptures they like and form their doctrines around it no matter how clear the bias."
I agree about picking scripture. The WTO has clearly picked on this one. However, Ecc 9:5 it is still true but there is more to the story, see the end of Job 14
Those who leave the earth are not conscious of anything going on on it "21 If his sons are honored, he does not know it; if they are brought low, he does not see it." but however, he continues to exist "22 He feels but the pain of his own body and mourns only for himself."
It is quite clear that this individual is in Hades or Sheol (see the footnote vs.13), the first death and awaiting the resurrection and judgement.
There are countless other, including Abraham, Elijah, the criminal crucified who are with the Lord, as Jesus and Paul described
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 5:8 (New International Version)
8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
"One of the songs in the Jehovah's Witness song book is actually based on Matthew 10:28, with the chorus 'Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the soul' It's an odd song to have in their book, as it highlights an obvious contradiction, and often leads to questioning after it's sung at meetings. The explanation I've usually heard, is that the soul here refers to Jehovah's memory of each person. Don't fear the person who can kill you, as Jehovah will remember you, and resurrect you in Paradise Earth. Like many of their explanations, it's not really adequate, the obvious question this would lead to is, how can Jehovah destroy his memory of you? "
Good, sound like the Holy Spirit was talking to you. Neither does it tie up with this.
2 Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[c] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature[d] and despise authority.
"I'd expect the Society have tried to explain this scripture in their literature, though I don't have access to a WT library CD where I could check."
No need!
All the best.
Stephen -
proplog2
If you really believe the Bible is God's Word and you take it literally then at best you are confronted with contradictions that leave you looking like an idiot. Some parts of the life of Christ very likely weren't really true. From a scientific point of view there is no evidence of a soul separate from the body. Can you really take a book seriously that never mentions the fact that you think with your "brain"? Or can you take a book seriously that teaches that semen contains a little person? According to the Bible women were just soil that nourished the little person the male "planted". Don't take this subject too seriously.
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heathen
"The story is told literally and not metaphorically." I think it's pretty obvious it's a metaphor .Rich man=the rich religious leaders, lazarus=the poor uneducated masses . The poor were begging for some scraps from the table of scriptural knowledge but the religious leaders that had the scrolls would only cater to the rich people .The religious leaders were then being criticized by people because of the miracles that jesus performed and their lack of compliance to the fact he was the messiah , they were losing their control over the people .They continued to ask for a sign (drop of water)such as over throwing the romans . God chooses the poor because of their humility (bossom of abraham) . Jesus also stated that it would go easier for the cities of sodom and gommorah on judgement day than for jerusalem in that time.