http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/ someone on this board gave me this link, can't recall who.
this man has some interesting ideas, beliefs about the afterlife. much as our being born is the luck of the draw, he feels the afterlife could be too.
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...
by Chalam 40 Replies latest jw friends
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Warlock
Re: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...
............they are just a bunch of lucky stiffs.
Warlock
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Chalam
Hi heathen,
"I think it's pretty obvious it's a metaphor .Rich man=the rich religious leaders, lazarus=the poor uneducated masses . The poor were begging for some scraps from the table of scriptural knowledge but the religious leaders that had the scrolls would only cater to the rich people .The religious leaders were then being criticized by people because of the miracles that jesus performed and their lack of compliance to the fact he was the messiah , they were losing their control over the people .They continued to ask for a sign (drop of water)such as over throwing the romans . God chooses the poor because of their humility (bossom of abraham) . Jesus also stated that it would go easier for the cities of sodom and gommorah on judgement day than for jerusalem in that time."
Well I found your explanation interesting. However, are you saying the event of the destruction Sodom and Gommorah was a metaphor or a parable too?
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
OK see these verses too.
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So the Bible is crystal clear, the punishment is day and night torment without end for those whose names are not in the Book Of Life. Here is how to get your name in there.
John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again
John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
Have a look and that name is Jesus.
Philippians 2:8-10 (New International Version)
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Is Isaiah lying?
Isaiah 45 (New International Version)
22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
So one God, no other, he name is Jesus and YHWH (LORD) or Jehovah if you prefer.
Jesus says it here.
John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."
Looks like we are two thirds of the way to the Trinity already!
Here is a clue for the rest.
John 14 (New International Version)
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.
All the best,
Stephen -
Eliveleth
White Dove said:
...they are living it up drinking vodka martinis (hold the olive, please) in the Summerlands considering the next life lesson assignment. Even if reincarnation isn't true, it sure sounds a lot better than the prospect of living forever under WT elder headship, don't ya think?
This made me laugh and recall something I had read online. It is called "Diary of an Armageddon Survivor" and it is located here: http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/bible/diary.html Made me know for sure I had made the right decision when I left. hee hee Love and hugs, Velta
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Chalam
Hi Velta,
Yes you did the right thing leaving! JWs talk about Armageddon all the time (along with the 144 000) but the word is only mentioned once in the whole Bible so how important can it be?
Revelation 16:16 (New International Version)
16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
"Love" is mentioned 697 times, "faith" 422 times, and "Jesus" 1276 times in the NIV so I guess they are far more important!
Regards,
Stephen -
Narkissos
... and "and" (kai) occurs around 10,000 times so it must be even more important
I find it quite amusing that your quotation of Job 14 leaves out what would allow the reader to get the point of the passage, namely that the idea of resurrection is dismissed as wishful thinking,and since man is desperately mortal, and will find neither reward nor punishment in what happens to his progeny after his death, God should at least let him enjoy his few days in peace instead of torturing him.
"A mortal, born of woman, few of days and full of trouble,
comes up like a flower and withers,
flees like a shadow and does not last. Do you fix your eyes on such a one?
Do you bring me into judgment with you?
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
No one can.
Since their days are determined,
and the number of their months is known to you,
and you have appointed the bounds that they cannot pass,
look away from them, and desist,
that they may enjoy, like laborers, their days.
"For there is hope for a tree,
if it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
and that its shoots will not cease.
Though its root grows old in the earth,
and its stump dies in the ground,
yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth branches like a young plant.
But mortals die, and are laid low;
humans expire, and where are they?
As waters fail from a lake,
and a river wastes away and dries up,
so mortals lie down and do not rise again;
until the heavens are no more, they will not awake
or be roused out of their sleep. Oh that you would hide me in Sheol,
that you would conceal me until your wrath is past,
that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If mortals die, will they live again?
All the days of my service I would wait
until my release should come.
You would call, and I would answer you;
you would long for the work of your hands.
For then you would not number my steps,
you would not keep watch over my sin;
my transgression would be sealed up in a bag,
and you would cover over my iniquity.
"But the mountain falls and crumbles away,
and the rock is removed from its place;
the waters wear away the stones;
the torrents wash away the soil of the earth;
so you destroy the hope of mortals.
You prevail forever against them, and they pass away;
you change their countenance, and send them away.
Their children come to honor, and they do not know it;
they are brought low, and it goes unnoticed.
They feel only the pain of their own bodies,
and mourn only for themselves."Of course other Bible passages teach very different ideas.
Everything is in "the Bible". This and that.
See, "and" is a very important word after all.
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Chalam
Hi Narkissos,
"I find it quite amusing that your quotation of Job 14 leaves out what would allow the reader to get the point of the passage, namely that the idea of resurrection is dismissed as wishful thinking,and since man is desperately mortal, and will find neither reward nor punishment in what happens to his progeny after his death, God should at least let him enjoy his few days in peace instead of torturing him."
I disagree.
"For there is hope for a tree,
if it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
and that its shoots will not cease.
Though its root grows old in the earth,
and its stump dies in the ground,
yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth branches like a young plant."
See here-same trees mentioned at the end.
Isaiah 61 (New International Version)
The Year of the LORD's Favor
1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners, [a]
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.
They will be called oaks of righteousness,
a planting of the LORD
for the display of his splendor.
Same here-no more death or morning.
Revelation 21:3-5 (New International Version)
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
"But the mountain falls and crumbles away,
and the rock is removed from its place;
the waters wear away the stones;
the torrents wash away the soil of the earth;
so you destroy the hope of mortals.
You prevail forever against them, and they pass away;
Yes spiritual death (the second death), Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Isaiah 66 (New International Version)
22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
Or here-same thing details but in the New Testament.
Revelation 20 (New International Version)
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
you change their countenance, and send them away.
Their children come to honor, and they do not know it;
they are brought low, and it goes unnoticed.
They feel only the pain of their own bodies,
and mourn only for themselves."
Regards,
Stephen -
Narkissos
I will put it more plainly since you didn't get my point.
I don't know if you were ever a JW (I suspect not) but you share the same method: making "doctrine" out of a patchwork of Bible texts instead of reading each text for itself in its own context -- which, of course, would make any "Biblical doctrine" impossible, since the texts do not agree with each other.
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Chalam
Hi again,
I understand your point now, many thanks!
The thing about 'making Biblical doctrine' is that, according to the Bible, God does not change His mind.
Malachi 3:6
[ Robbing God ] "I the LORD do not change.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Also, God is the author behind the Bible, it is His word.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed
So reading the Bible is a great way to get to know Him.
Moses puts it well
Exodus 33:13
If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you.
I agree that the context is important and we should not take things out of context. However, we can read any part of the Bible and cross reference it with another and form a view about who God is and get to know Him.
God does not contradict Himself, and although there are some texts which on the face of it appear contradictory, if you consider them in the context and then compare them then you will find there are not.
I have never been a JW and I my beliefs are plain in my posts (I am born again as Jesus said in John 3) and I do accept teaching from those qualified to do so
Ephesians 4 (New International Version)
10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
That said, the Holy Spirit is my teacher first and foremost.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 14 (New International Version)
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
So if you want to understand the Bible and get to know God, you need to ask the Holy Spirit and certainly not the WTO or other 'sole divine channel'. After all, God has not changed His mind on this either.
Acts 2:17
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people"
All the best,
Stephen -
Narkissos
Hello Stephen,
You know, ex-JWs are the worst possible audience for your kind of talk. Been there, done that.
E.g. for one text suggesting that "God does not change His mind" there are several which clearly state the opposite (the Flood, Jonah, etc.). And of course you know that too.
You pick up the statements you consider as the "clear exposition of Biblical teaching" and then you explain away the others -- although they are no less "Biblical".
God does not contradict Himself, and although there are some texts which on the face of it appear contradictory, if you consider them in the context and then compare them then you will find there are not.
LOL. In most cases (as in your first post above), ignoring contexts is vital to "resolving" contradictions or to make up one doctrine out of many unrelated texts.
Your superiority over JWs is that you seem to be able to quote two or three verses in a row instead of one. But that's still a bit short of "context".