If evolution is true ?

by D wiltshire 88 Replies latest jw friends

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Let me try to make myself clear(I hope).

    I didn't say if evolution is true then God does not exist.
    I feel I can beleive in evolution and still beleive in God.
    Do I beleive in evolution? Not with my whole heart, soul, and mind.
    Do I disbeleive in evolution? No.
    Can I say eveolution is a fact No because I'm not keeping up with it enough to say with sure conviction.

    My postulation was if both thing were true then this is my conclusion.

    I'm not so sure that I can't be budged from my conclusion. With new information and the passing of time who knows.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • mommy
    mommy

    Hey D
    I believe if you do a bit of research on evolution you will have an ability to make an informed decision. This past year I did research on it, and my eyes were open to many misconceptions I had. This was actually fairly easy for me to do on the web. Here is a website talk orgins, I found it extremly helpful. http://www.talkorigins.org/

    And here is another link to the 5 misconceptions on evolution,
    . http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#observe

    If you don't have all the evidence, you really can't make a decision one way or the other. Happy Hunting
    wendy

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Mommy,

    I will read those pages latter,(I've marked them in my folder)
    I'm trying to be fair and open minded, though I'm way more in favor of beleiving in God's existance.
    To me it make the most sense.

    Thanks for your helpfulness.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • mommy
    mommy

    D,
    I just want to comment on your comment that believing in god makes sense. See I used to think this too. I thought,

    god is all knowing(someone told me that, I believed it)

    god created everything, even the devil(just not his evil side)

    god takes care of us(I still can't see evidence of that)

    god will provide a place for us be it in heaven or on earth after we die(why is he waiting until we die? If this is non life then shouldn't this "life" be called death?)

    we should not question god's plans(why did he give us that ability then?)

    no one can understand god's infinite wisdom(why wouldn't he want it clearly spelled out to his "children" if it really does means life and death?)

    See for me it is much easier to believe in non existence of god, than a god who put all of us here to "test" us for the next life. A god who created all things, but only takes credit for the good. A god who has not once protected his believers from death, starvation, and illness. A god who loses his temper and kills people for disobeying, and lets others off with eternal banishment. A god who chooses some of his children to understand him, and others allowed to die. To me he seems like a real jerk, an uncaring father, a malicious schizophrenic, but that is just my opinion
    wendy

    Blind faith can justify anything.~Richard Dawkins

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    What if all that God required of us, is to show we want eternal life in some tangible way that will indicate we really wanted it, and then, and only then, grant it to us?

    What if the Adam and Eve thing, is not about some Issue of God's right to rule, but only done this way so we would have to show by some tangible way we want life and that is a perfect way to find the answer to:
    Do we really want to live forever?

  • mommy
    mommy

    What if I had my children and then decided they were not worthy to live, and I killed them?

    What if I lived my whole life uncomfortable with the rules god has made for us, only to find out I turn to dust.

    What if I lived my life, treating others as I want to be treated, trying to be good to all, accomplishing everything I ever dreamed of and then died a happy satisfied woman surrounded by my family and friends.

    D, the what if's will kill ya. I personally try to live my life as best I can. That is the only guarantee I will be happy, and be satisfied.
    wendy

    Blind faith can justify anything.~Richard Dawkins

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    D wiltshire;

    I feel I can beleive in evolution and still beleive in God.
    Yup. But what do you mean by god?

    My postulation was if both thing were true then this is my conclusion.
    Yeah, but your postulate revealed (without being rude), that before you get round to postulating you'd better do some learning. If you had a high school or sophomore level knowledge of the Sciences, you wouldn't have asked the question as you'd know it was silly to anyone with a decent level of science education. I'm not saying you are dumb, just you need to learn. Let's look at it;

    If evolution is true and God doesn’t exist, and all matter always existed,
    Wrong. Matter has not always existed. The Universe started as a singularity (a small, as in REALLY SMALL, subatomically small) point which went bang. The best understandings seem to indicate the 'begininning' was more like a U than a V, as in the process which lead to the big bang was a gradual process (until the bang itself) rather than starting all of a sudden at a certain instance... it was like a paper warehouse exploding in flame after a small fire raised the temperature inside to 471 degrees F... a cascading chain reaction, built on the fabric that our space-time is built on, a zero-point energy field (where there is LOADS of energy, but just happens to be an average of zero; think of fizzy water).

    Now, my level of understanding of the above physics is slightly better than your understanding of evolution I'd say, but I fully admit that's a vert layperson explination, so any one who can do better I salute and open the floor to, but, matter is ALL from the big bang, and that can be dated, so matter did not exist for ever.

    and life keeps adapting and getting more and more advanced, conquering all problems set before its existence.
    Wrong in particular, but in general true.

    If you do anything too extreme (like drop a very large asteroid into the atmosphere at high speed), then you exceed the adaptability of most species, at least the ones with more than one cell... ). You can but an infinate number of goldfish and take them out of water one by one and put them on your coffee table and they will all die, by drowning in the air.

    Less extreme things, like AIDS, as a previous poster bought up, can be overcome by adaptation; already there are towns in Africa where about a third of the protitutes do not get infected by AIDS, despite exposure on a regular basis. Slow climate change will kill those without the required fitness and concentrate the genes giving the fitness for the new climate in the surviving population.

    Then life should have already filled the entire universe and advanced to the point of never dying.
    Wrong. Life expands to fill niches. Life obeys physics. It is possible, I suppose, that a species would develop immortality, but I doubt it would be through evolution. Evolution is a blind genius. It can get round virtually any problem, but cannot get round problems that aren't there.

    I need to explain that; there is no need to live forever to pass genes on. Therefore this feature is not selected by evolutionary mechanisms, as evolutionary mechanisms revolve around the passiing on of genetic material.

    Also, vaccuum is a niche that may have a life form in it now, or one day, but it would be weird shit life, sustained by stellar radiation or zero-point energy, or perhaps interstellar gases.

    As the Universe consists of mostly vaccuum, seperating the more desirable areas, life cannot 'fill the entire Universe'.

    Also, if you are seeking for 'truth', you have lost the way already; you say;

    I'm trying to be fair and open minded, though I'm way more in favor of beleiving in God's existance.
    That is niether fair nor open minded. You cannot pretned to search for truth and really be looking for god, because all you will do is, most probably, is to find god even if it's not there.

    And;

    What if all that God required of us, is to show we want eternal life in some tangible way that will indicate we really wanted it, and then, and only then, grant it to us?
    This would be fine if an intelligent creature could ascertain this was god's will without doubt. God's exitence or desires cannot be ascertained without doubt. Therefore, either it doesn't exist, or it has no desires regarding our actions, or it's an asshole playing games.

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka

    As to Jan's post, I have studied a lot on the subject, and I agree. Evolutoin is apparent. It's just the beginning that I still have problems with.

    ashi

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    ash;

    Either way, you have a problem. By that I mean, you either have a god whose been hanging round, who came from nothing or was eternal. A vastly complex entity without explaination.

    OR you have a Universe without a god, where it happened as a result of natural processes - which is what the latest understanding of physics says, basically, that the Universe as we know it coming into being was part of a natural process, no more remarkable than Autumn.

    If there is a god, it's a logical minefield.

    Is it a disinterested creative entity who might not even be specifically aware of our existence? In which case it's existence is as irrelevent in every day life to us as ours is to it.

    Or, if it exists and is interested in us, why the uncertainty? Why the lack of proof? They seem contrary to any conception of a loving caring god.

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi all,

    Enjoyed all the posts so far. I just want to comment that, imo, it's not sound thinking to have a belief in god or evolution without really examining both.

    I spent 28 years examining the WTS views and NEVER read a book by a scientist about evolution. Now I have read several and regret not having looked at both sides.

    Am I a 'believer' in either? No, but feel evolution makes more sense. Rethink the whole 'believer' concept. Why does one have to have a sure belief? That comes from religions.

    Btw, something like 98% of biologists do believe that evolution did happen. (In Richard Dawkins' book, I think.)

    Cheers!
    Pat

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