Debunking the Reagan Myth

by nvrgnbk 86 Replies latest jw friends

  • 5go
    5go
    Historical revisionism amuses me.

    Especially the people who are doing realize they are doing it.

    Reagan truths

    He never saw a spending bill he didnt like, ran up a huge deficit then blamed it on congress.

    He prolonged the cold war by scarring the Soviets despite propaganda to the contrary.

    He waisted money on restoring four old battleships to combat four new advanced soviet battle cruisers designed to sink entire battle groups instead of building and real counter measure to them.

    He and his deregulation policies caused the Savings and Loan scandal and bailout of it, the greatest corporate welfare act ever. Despite his anti-government and general welfare stance.

    He cut and ran from Lebanon.

    He presided over the greatest stock market crash since the great depression.

    He started the war on drugs the biggest trampling of our civil liberties until the patriot act.

    He earned the nick name Teflon president do to all the scandals he got away with.

    He was a family values man despite being divorced.

    He was against the Hollywood elite despite being a member of it.

    He lied to the public about Iran Contra then later confirmed it was true but not his fault despite it being approved by him.

    He granted amnesty to illegals immigrants and never bothered to fix the border problem.

    ETC

  • RollerDave
    RollerDave

    You're funny, I like you.

    Thanks for twisting everything in such a silly way so I can get a good laugh, I needed it!

    Some of the stuff you guys quote is just not true, others are true, but I don't see them the way you do.

    So, I agree to disagree, and I also agree that you are basically wrong and funny. :)

    Now will you kindly explain how Carter was a great president and was the guy REALLY responsible for defeating communism?

    I could use another good laugh from the gut!

    Have a nice day!

    RD

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I love Reagan.

    alt

  • dawg
    dawg

    Roller, your a good guy and I personally like you, but you're living a fantacy. Regan, Bush I. and now Bush II have ruined this country..... period! There's nothing you Republicans can do that can change the facts....

    I stood directly by Gorbechev here at UGA when he came and spoke in the late 90's or 2000, so long ago and I'm getting old so can't remember the exact year, but he stated that Regan's spending did nothing to end the cold war, that Russians couldn't be kept unaware that the West was living better lifestyles via the internet and the like, and that they could see their system wasn't the best way to run things-the leaders in Russia knew they'd better act as their constituients were becoming aware communism wasn't working. The war in Afganistan had almost runied the military so there was no reason to continue the current system, that's the reason for Detante, and a change in the system.

    And as for the debt, are you freaking kidding me Roller? Carter came close to balancing his budget by the time he left office as did Clinton... want to guess who ballooned the budget from $1.5 trillion to $4.5 trillion... good guess Roller. From Regan to Bush II, all Republican have increased spending and inflated the debt in huge ways-Regan inflated spending and increased the debt to $4.5 tillion and now Bush II, good lord I'm not sure what these tax cuts will end up costing the US taxpayers but the debt is way out of hand.

    And companies started moving factories in the 80's so they could escape Unions, the EPA, and OSHA, so now most things are made in Mexico and the like. How long did you Republicans think that houses could be our only mode of manufacturig, how long did you think that would prop up the economy? Watch the news today Roller? Last I looked, the market is tanking, and when people start loosing jobs becasue there's no manufacturing here in the states, what are people tied to buildig going to do for work? We are in big trouble man, and you partisians are the reason-any party. Republican and Democrat alike.

    YOu can pontificate about socialism all you want, but the simple fact is we'll never get out from under the wasteful spending these administrations have buried us under. You are watching the end of this country as we all know it, and I blame people like you, and anyone that tows any party line, and I freaking mean any party, for not standing up before it was too late and putting an end to what was clearly out of hand... so go back and listen to Rush Limbaugh Roller, bury your head in the sand and blame the Democrats, when it was all of you that believe any party had the answers and towed any party line that fidled while Rome burned... to anyone that puts partisanship above country, you can look in the mirror the next few years and point to yourselves when you're wondering why we're in the mess we're soon to be in....get a grip Roller.

    Good news though Roller, abortion is still legal, so you've still got fundamentalsit Christians on your side...sad thing the side you should be on, and anyone that thinks any party has all the answers, is the side of this country... so anyone who believes in any party, who hasn't stepped out of the box and fugured out that it's the partisianship that has killed us, we all have you to think for our future...

    Regan started this destruction, now we can thank Bush II and all of you that contiune to believe in parties... read Federalist #10 Roller and get back with me, our fathers were worried sick about partisanship and were trying to limit it...thank you all for finding a way aroud the system; finding a way for us to be divided. I blame anyone who supports any party for this mess, but the Republicans in perticular, they clearly caused the most damage.

  • dawg
    dawg

    To all those who wants to know what Gorbachev said about Reagan, here's what I heard him say the day I saw him in person... he wasn't afraid of Reagan, the soviet union was hurting economically and Gorbechev knew he was pressing the west, not by force but by letting the west know he was willing to relese tensions....

    http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/22/interviews/gorbachev/

    The real hero was the man that started relesing tentions "detante"... Regan had no choice but play the hard line and look bad to the rest of the West..I'll give it to him that he was smart enought to know better than look bad, but he really had no choice.

  • dawg
    dawg

    Then you hate thuis country Burn the Ships.... did his presidency help this country? Then you love a man and hate your country.

  • SWALKER
    SWALKER

    http://skeptically.org/wto/id19.html

    I think the above link explains the facts very well!!!

    Swalker

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Dawg,

    Why do you hate America?

  • BurnTheShips
  • SWALKER
    SWALKER

    Here are a couple of headlines for those who haven't had the time to study both economics and history: 1. There is no such thing as a "free market." 2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering). The conservative belief in "free markets" is a bit like the Catholic Church 's insistence that the Earth was at the center of the Solar System in the Twelfth Century. It's widely believed by those in power, those who challenge it are branded heretics and ridiculed, and it is wrong. In actual fact, there is no such thing as a "free market." Markets are the creation of government. Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government. And, most important, the rules of the game of business are defined by government. Any sports fan can tell you that football, baseball, or hockey without rules and referees would be a mess. Similarly, business without rules won't work. Which explains why conservative economics wiped out the middle class during the period from 1880 to 1932, and why, when Reagan again began applying conservative economics, the middle class again began to vanish in America in the 1980s - a process that has dramatically picked up steam under George W. Bush . The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop corporations from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." This is, at best, destructive to national and international economies, and, at worst, destructive to democracy itself. Markets are a creation of government, just as corporations exist only by authorization of government. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business. If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest. Which requires us to puncture the second balloon of popular belief. The "middle class" is not the natural result of freeing business to do whatever it wants, of "free and open markets," or of "free trade." The "middle class" is not a normal result of "free markets." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs." The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business. It is, quite simply, an artifact of government regulation of markets and tax laws. When government sets the rules of the game of business in such a way that working people must receive a living wage, labor has the power to organize into unions just as capital can organize into corporations, and domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and we return to the Dickens-era "normal" form of totally free market conservative economics where the rich get richer while the working poor are kept in a constant state of fear and anxiety so the cost of their labor will always be cheap. When conservatives rail in the media of the dangers of "returning to Smoot Hawley, which created the Great Depression ," all they do is reveal their ignorance of economics and history. The Smoot-Hawley tariff legislation, which increased taxes on some imported goods by a third to two-thirds to protect American industries, was signed into law on June 17, 1930 , well into the Great Depression . In the following two years, international trade dropped from 6 percent of GNP to roughly 2 percent of GNP (between 1930 and 1932), but most of that was the result of the depression going worldwide, not Smoot-Hawley. The main result of Smoot-Hawley was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans. Smoot-Hawley "protectionist" legislation did not cause the Great Depression , and while it may have had a slight short-term negative effect on the economy ("1.4 percent at most" according to many historians) its long-term effect was to bring American jobs back to America . The fact that the "marketplace" was an artifact of government activity was well known to our Founders. As Thomas Jefferson said in an 1803 letter to David Williams, "The greatest evils of populous society have ever appeared to me to spring from the vicious distribution of its members among the occupations... But when, by a blind concourse, particular occupations are ruinously overcharged and others left in want of hands, the national authorities can do much towards restoring the equilibrium." And the "national authorities," in Jefferson 's mind, should be the Congress, as he wrote in a series of answers to the French politician de Meusnier in 1786: "The commerce of the States cannot be regulated to the best advantage but by a single body, and no body so proper as Congress." Of course, there were conservatives (like Hamilton and Adams) in Jefferson 's time, too, who took exception, thinking that the trickle-down theory that had dominated feudal Europe for ten centuries was a stable and healthy form of governance. Jefferson took exception, in an 1809 letter to members of his Democratic Republican Party (now called the Democratic Party): "The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government." But, conservatives say, government is the problem, not the solution. Of course, they can't explain how it was that the repeated series of huge tax cuts for the wealthy by the Herbert Hoover administration brought us the Great Depression , while raising taxes to provide for an active and interventionist government to protect the rights of labor to organize throughout the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s led us to the Golden Age of the American Middle Class. (The top tax rate in 1930 under Hoover was 25 percent, and even that was only paid by about a fifth of wealthy Americans. Thirty years later, the top tax rate was 91 percent, and held at 70 percent until Reagan began dismantling the middle class. As the top rate dropped, so did the middle class it helped create.) Thomas Jefferson pointed out, in an 1816 letter to William H. Crawford, "Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association." He also pointed out in that letter that some people - and businesses - would prefer that government not play referee to the game of business, not fix rules that protect labor or provide for the protection of the commons and the public good. We must, Jefferson wrote to Crawford, "...say to all [such] individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens [like corporations], on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." Most of the Founders advocated - and all ultimately passed - tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. Seventy years later, Abraham Lincoln actively stood up for the right for labor to organize, intervening in several strikes to stop corporations and local governments from using hired goon squads to beat and murder strikers. But conservative economics - the return of ancient feudalism - rose up after Lincoln 's death and reigned through the Gilded Age, creating both great wealth and a huge population of what today we call the "working poor." American reaction to these disparities gave birth to the Populist, Progressive , and modern Labor movements. Two generations later, Franklin Roosevelt brought us out of Herbert Hoover 's conservative-economics-produced Great Depression and bequeathed us with more than a half-century of prosperity. But now the conservatives are back in the driver's seat, and heading us back toward feudalism and serfdom (and possibly another Great Depression ). Only a return to liberal economic policies - a return to We The People again setting and enforcing the rules of the game of business - will reverse this dangerous trend. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class. If the remnants of that modern middle class are to survive - and grow - we must learn the lessons of the past and return to the policies that in the 1780s and the late 1930s brought this nation back from the brink of economic disaster. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0412-13.htm Swalker

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