"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character... (page 22)

Mariusuk.

So any conclusion on the question of whether God (O.T ver. 1) was a thoroughly nasty piece of work? Maybe a poll would have worked better! My answer - Of course he/she/it was, commiting genocidal acts, allowing the the mental and physical torture of one of your faithful followers, cursing an entire nation for one of Noah's son's indiscretions and randomly killing people for trivialities are all hallmarks of a celestial sociapath. Amazing that this is even in dispute

Mariusuk.

hmmm double post??? Strange

snowbird

How do you "know" for a certainty that the Israelites were killing due to God's command and not just their own ulterior motives for land and territory like everyone else in the neighbourhood? All tribes and nations attributed their war wins to God's favor and their losses to God's disfavor. What makes the Israelites claims so special?
Cog

If by "know" you mean empirically, neither I nor anyone else living can give an answer that would satisfy you.

I've made it clear that I believe the Bible is the inspired record of God's dealings with His people - the Israelites. I believe God is a loving Person, but He doesn't play around when it comes to His people or His purpose.

What makes the Israelites' claims so special? They were an oppressed minority. They were oftentimes fearful, faithless, and disobedient. They had to be chastised repeatedly for their stiff-necked, rebellious ways. Were it not for God fighting for them, the Promised Land would never have been settled. What ulterior motives could they possibly have had? Why, after just three days into their exodus, they were ready to return to Egypt! That doesn't sound like a people bent on conquest simply for the sake of conquest.

How do you "know" for a certainty that things didn't happen the way they are portrayed in the Bible? Exactly.

Sylvia

Mariusuk.

I believe the Bible is the inspired record of God's dealings with His people

Do you believe that because the bible says so "all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial .......etc", that is kind of me writing some ramblings and stating they are God's word. Not trying to be rude I just wonder why people believe the bible as if it is fact?

BurnTheShips

Of course he/she/it was, commiting genocidal acts, allowing the the mental and physical torture of one of your faithful followers, cursing an entire nation for one of Noah's son's indiscretions and randomly killing people for trivialities are all hallmarks of a celestial sociapath.

In which case, the nation that you believe merely created this sociopath was sociopathic as well. And they were not unique in their pathology but actually rather mild in comparison to most. Of course, we can sit here in our sheltered 21st century existence and judge without repercussions.

The records we have of the conquest Canaan were compiled by those very same "sociopaths" and these, like most people back then, emphasised that their military victories came from Yahweh and that Israel followed Yahweh's directions carefully. They always dedicated their military victories as a sacrifice to Yahweh in thanksgiving for his aid (be it that they were aided or not). The herem, the destruction of all the defeated, was done as a show that Israel put all its trust in Yahweh alone andsought nothing for itself.

This brutality shocks us, but the ancients would not have shared our viewpoint. Their principles placed national survival above any personal gain, and indentified success with the will of the deity(s). These stories are in essence not saying that killing everyone is a good. It is a narrative of how the authors of these passages came to understand their victory, and God as well. Some on herecompare the OT and NT and say God has changed. God hasn't changed, it is the understanding of God that has changed and is still changing.

Israel thought they had divine national sanction. They did not. When they did not heed the Prophets they were defeated and exiled.
After the exile their ideas about God changed. They stopped being about land and nation and started being about a personal responsibility and relationship with God.

The OT is a story of the revelation God made to Israel, and how they misunderstood it and how they came to understand it. That understanding grew into the prophecies of Isaiah fortelling Christ, and that is why it is important and relevant, despite the bloody parts. We can sit here after thousands of years of growth and judge that old understanding, but we are hardly being fair.

Burn

dawg

BTS, you can't be reasoned with.. We're not saying God has changed, we're saying the bibcial God has changed...We that are stating this do not believe in your murderous God you defned in your Bible.

if you can't see the difference between Loving your enemy, and killing every one of them, then I feel for you man, I really do... I've watched you on this forum for some time, you have a hard time with rational discussions... just simply tell me how killing your enemy and loving them isn't a change in dogma? Its that simple really.

snowbird

Not trying to be rude I just wonder why people believe the bible as if it is fact?

I believe the Bible because it deals with real people, times, and places. No once upon a time in a far away land to be found within its pages!

Some on herecompare the OT and NT and say God has changed. God hasn't changed, it is the understanding of God that has changed and is still changing.

Agreed. Just because He's seen in the OT as a God of war, doesn't rule out His also being a God of peace. He wages war in order to make peace happen. I know that isn't so hard to understand for those who really want to.

Sylvia

BurnTheShips

BTS, you can't be reasoned with.. We're not saying God has changed, we're saying the bibcial God has changed...We that are stating this do not believe in your murderous God you defned in your Bible.

Dawg, please read my post carefully. I am saying that our understanding of God as recorded in the Bible, has changed. We see the progression in the Bible itself. As for your use of the word murder, murder is to kill unlawfully. In a sense, how could God break the law? I do not see how that would apply to God either way.

if you can't see the difference between Loving your enemy, and killing every one of them, then I feel for you man, I really do... I've watched you on this forum for some time, you have a hard time with rational discussions... just simply tell me how killing your enemy and loving them isn't a change in dogma? Its that simple really.

I am not denying a change in human understanding, or "dogma" as you call it. Please read my post again. As for my difficulty with rationality, I haven't been watching you, Dawg, so I can't say how rational you are. I am just saying that you did not understand the thrust of my post above.\

Cheers, Burn

digderidoo

Pardon me for butting in, but how do you put quotations in those boxes?

snowbird

Pardon me for butting in, but how do you put quotations in those boxes?

ROFL!!! This is YOUR thread; you shouldn't have to ask pardon for anything.

On my screen, and hopefully yours, there's a quotation bubble right above and between the italics and underlining thingy.

If you have that, click on it so as to place the quotation box where you want it. Highlight the quote you want, copy, and place it in the box.

I hope this is a little clearer than mud. Someone more technically inclined will be along after awhile, I'm sure.

Sylvia

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

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