"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character... (page 21)

snowbird

Caedes, you asked if your question was too difficult. Meaning this one?

Snowbird,
If your god personally asked you to commit murder, would you do so?
Assuming that you were as sure that it was god asking you as you are of your faith. Let's also assume that it was someone guilty of immorality, adultery for instance.

When God kills, personally or by proxy, I wouldn't call it murder.

If I knew beyond a shadow of doubt - as the Israelite judges would have known - that it was God giving the instructions to kill, I don't think I would have a problem carrying out those instructions.

However, I have good reason to believe, thankfully, that it won't ever come to that.

Sylvia

funkyderek

snowbird:

If I knew beyond a shadow of doubt - as the Israelite judges would have known - that it was God giving the instructions to kill, I don't think I would have a problem carrying out those instructions.

Just like these guys:

cognizant dissident

If I knew beyond a shadow of doubt - as the Israelite judges would have known - that it was God giving the instructions to kill, I don't think I would have a problem carrying out those instructions.

Snowbird, I am curious to know how you would know "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that is was God giving the instructions to kill. What is your criteria for "knowing" that it is God's will?

Cog

snowbird

Here's one way, not only I, but everyone will know:

Matthew 24: 26 -28 "So if they say, 'Run to the country and see him arrive!' or, 'Quick, get downtown, see him come!' don't give them the time of day. The Arrival of the Son of Man isn't something you go to see. He comes like swift lightning to you! Whenever you see crowds gathering, think of carrion vultures circling, moving in, hovering over a rotting carcass. You can be quite sure that it's not the living Son of Man pulling in those crowds.

29 "Following those hard times,

Sun will fade out,
moon cloud over,
Stars fall out of the sky,
cosmic powers tremble.

30 -31 "Then, the Arrival of the Son of Man! It will fill the skies—no one will miss it. Unready people all over the world, outsiders to the splendor and power, will raise a huge lament as they watch the Son of Man blazing out of heaven. At that same moment, he'll dispatch his angels with a trumpet-blast summons, pulling in God's chosen from the four winds, from pole to pole.

Sylvia

snowbird

And another ...

1 Thessalonians 4:15 -18 And then this: We can tell you with complete confidence—we have the Master's word on it—that when the Master comes again to get us, those of us who are still alive will not get a jump on the dead and leave them behind. In actual fact, they'll be ahead of us. The Master himself will give the command. Archangel thunder! God's trumpet blast! He'll come down from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise—they'll go first. Then the rest of us who are still alive at the time will be caught up with them into the clouds to meet the Master. Oh, we'll be walking on air! And then there will be one huge family reunion with the Master. So reassure one another with these words.

No invisible presence or hidden rapture in those texts, huh?

Sylvia

cognizant dissident

Those quotes are from the New Testament and pertain to the future. OK, I understand that, if and when trumpets start blaring in heaven and the son of man comes down and the dead start arising, I will have no problem being a believer then and admitting I was wrong. Although, I see no reason to believe that's ever going to happen. How do you "know" for a certainty that the Israelites were killing due to God's command and not just their own ulterior motives for land and territory like everyone else in the neighbourhood? All tribes and nations attributed their war wins to God's favor and their losses to God's disfavor. What makes the Israelites claims so special?

Cog

dawg

And yet we wonder why this world is in the mess it's in.... plainly, Chris Hutchens, and Richard Dawkins has it right, the evil is before us now and its called religion.

catbert

Dawg,

I think patience is required here. For years, fighting communism was almost a religion for many in the free world. The game played itself out, and communism lost because it doesn't lead to a good quality of life.

Not so long ago in human history, you could be burned alive for having the conversation that is being had in this thread.

Things are better now. The "shifting moral zeitgeist" that Dawkins talks about is moving forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwz6B8BFkb4

quietlyleaving

religion, culture, scientific thought, societal formation have followed the same intertwined path whether we like it or not. We can't now judge the past or somehow excise or label one part as being responsible for most of the bad. That's shortsighted fantasy.

Mariusuk.

So any conclusion on the question of whether God (O.T ver. 1) was a thoroughly nasty piece of work? Maybe a poll would have worked better! My answer - Of course he/she/it was, commiting genocidal acts, allowing the the mental and physical torture of one of your faithful followers, cursing an entire nation for one of Noah's son's indiscretions and randomly killing people for trivialities are all hallmarks of a celestial sociapath. Amazing that this is even in dispute

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

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