Dating a JW and how to get her off the cult or becoming a member myself

by svennibenni 93 Replies latest social relationships

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    Svenni: What Carla means by saying that the woman will not be truly happy until you become an elder or higher is this: Virtually all males are strongly encouraged to "reach out for privileges" and move up in ranking/status within the congregation. There is an established and formal hierarchy with the Jehovah's Witnesses sect. The lowest rank are the publishers, that is to say the run-of-the mill, everyday witness. Every baptized witness is a publisher. Next higher in ranking are the ministerial servants. Only males can be appointed as ministerial servants. Above them are the elders. As with the ministerial servants, only males can become elders. The elders form a group called the Board of Elders, or the B.O.E. Within the Board of Elders, there is a presiding overseer or P.O., and above the Presiding Overseer there are a District Overseer and Circuit Overseer.

    Within the Jehovah's Witnesses sect, women are excluded from all decision-making. They have absolutely no formal power or authority. They can ony achieve power and influence vicariously, that is through their husbands. A woman can rise in status only if her husband rises in status.

  • carla
    carla

    Oh man! You really need to research this cult before you get your heart broken. Really, I'm serious. Go to Freeminds for starters, then check out the pedophile problem at Silentlambs and in the news. If it would be easier for you, check out youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4z0lX1l3h4 then look at all the related videos and try other searches as well. Others will provide you with links too.

  • sspo
    sspo

    You could become a member so you could marry her but keep in mind you cannot trick her or other family members.

    Are you willing to go door to door and preach something you don't beleive or attend meetings 3 times a week and take the

    lead in studying with her for the meetings? What if you fail in convincing her that the watchtower is a cult?

    She already broke up with you before and she might do it again even if she is your wife.

    There are many on this board that once we found out about the lies of the watchtower and spoke about it to our mates,

    we were turned in to the elders for apostacy............. marriages were broken up due to "spiritual endangerment"

    Talk to her about your findings and see what happens.Think seriously before you jump into this marriage with a JW

    Save yourself

  • svennibenni
    svennibenni

    HI Layla,

    so you dont think there is any hope ? Have you been into JW ? How did YOU finish it ? All of you - That tells me it is possible !! One "only" needs a helping hand ?

  • wanderlustguy
    wanderlustguy

    HI Layla,

    so you dont think there is any hope ? Have you been into JW ? How did YOU finish it ? All of you - That tells me it is possible !! One "only" needs a helping hand ?

    Listen carefully...or read carefully. Here it is...unfiltered, the truth. Anyone argue with this please...

    YOU CANNOT TAKE HER OUT, SHE MUST ASK OR LOOK FOR IT. If you pull someone out you run the risk of suicide, by far the worst consequence but by no means the only one. You will peel away the very surface of the earth and everything in it, and she will feel like she wants to die. She will lose every single friend and family member she has, you will be the only person she has and you have no idea what monster you will have on your hands. Be careful. You do not know what you are looking at, people can self destruct even if they choose to come out. But it seems the ones brought out not of their own doing seem to fare the worst. You don't want to live with that. Walk away and go live your life like you never heard of this stuff. WLG
  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    I was a born in, but I never got baptised.

    I fell in love with a non-believer and and married her.

    She and our children are JWs and now that I have tested the teachings of the cult for truthfulness, I have become the evil one that has been sent by Satan to lead them away from salvation and into destruction.

    In hindsight, I believe, that because I was still influenced by the teachings of the cult, I was damaged goods and was not marriageable material.

    My wife and children are still creating new victims for a cult that I see as psychologically damaging....and there is little I can do to repair the damage I have caused.


    Chris

  • sass_my_frass
    sass_my_frass

    Hey bro; we get somebody in your situation here every week or so - you could look up your compatriots in the 'relationships' forum or there's a thread with the best of them on the 'best of' forum. There has been much great advice given on this in the past and if you don't hear what you want to hear on your own thread, look up those that came before you.

    My personal experience: I was a JW, and I broke one non-JWs heart before I worked out I wanted out. The other stayed with me throughout the process, but he never got any guarantees that I'd ever be free from it, he just took the risk. If you can honestly answer to yourself that you'd be okay with not ever being the most important thing in her life (you'll be less important than the meetings, field service, opinion of her family and friends, and of course Jehovah and the elders), go for it, give it a go stop kidding yourself.

    I have no idea. I just want to tell you to run away and let her guide her own decisions. There are people here who have been married for half of their lives as witnesses and one member wants to get out. They know that person better than anybody in the world, and they're experts on witness beliefs and fallacies, and they still have no idea how to help them out. That's because the process cannot possibly work if there is an external pressure on the person concerned. If anybody had tried it with me I'd have gone running back in a heartbeat, cut that person off, and not miss a meeting for five years. This is the nature of her attachment. There is nothing you can do. If she thinks she loves it and wants it, you must let her work out for herself why she's wrong. There is no way to tell her.

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    Hi Sven,

    A voice of experience speaking here; I was baptised and became interested in a girl who was not one of Jehovah's Witnesses. (I plan to relate my story here one day.) I am no expert. I repeat: I am no expert. But your situation sounds so familiar I just had to post my thoughts.

    Firstly, a couple of basics:

    1) Do not get baptised.

    Not only would getting baptised be an enormous risk (she could shun you when you were disfellowshipped), but it would also destroy an important advantage which you currently have. Submitting to the cult would reinforce, in her mind, the view that all good, honest-hearted people can see it is the truth and only serve to make it harder for her to think along the right lines. While you are a "worldly person" (someone who is not one of Jehovah's Witnesses), you can continue to provoke an uncomfortable thought in her mind - that there are entirely good and decent people outside of her religion. If you want to help her instead of just getting her for yourself, making it possible for her to get out should be your goal. Life inside her current world is not something you want long-term.

    2) Do not tell her you have been posting about the religion, or her, on the internet.

    She has been trained to view anyone who has an insider's knowledge of the religion and that chooses to criticise the Watchtower Society as evil. She will likely believe that "apostates" have fed you false information and deceived you, and then tell you so and choose to stop contact with you in case you pollute her.

    So, with those two fundamentals out of the way, how do you work out where to go from here?

    Before you take any further action or say anything new to her, I suggest you work out in your own mind how much you are willing to risk losing in order to give her a chance at getting herself out. Is it possible that she will free herself? Yes. But it is also possible she never will. How long will you wait? It would have to be at least months; possibly years. Is she worth it?

    If you're not willing to place a relevant portion of your lifetime and emotional reserves into this, then walk away. (In that case, I suggest you inform her you have found researching her religion interesting but that you are not comfortable with its translation of the bible which deliberately misrenders key scriptures, you can't make yourself submit to men who demand that their followers submit to their current set of doctrines and rules instead of what you have read in the bible that Jesus taught and that you believe each of us has to be honest with ourselves and do what is right. Wish her all the best and part on your separate ways. You never know - this all-or-nothing approach might just trigger something, but don't count on it.)

    If you are willing to wait for her, then you will need a good deal of patience and self control to give her the best chance of freeing herself...

    Thinking back to when I went through my process of "temptation", doubt and research, I can see encouraging signs in what you have related about her here. She has already gone way outside of her supposed boundaries by talking with you for such long sessions, kissing you and talking about things in what you believe to be an honest way. I feel that her comment that she has never told anyone half as much about her feelings as she has told you is particularly significant. If she can see that your discussions on the topic of religion are honest and fair-minded, this is a very good thing. And she'll follow you wherever you go (if you were to become a JW)? Sounds like she is, indeed, in love, which is probably the only thing for a lot of people that could possibly motivate some real thinking.

    I got to a stage where I'd felt close to a girl for some months, and I couldn't really imagine her ever wanting to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. For some weeks I was hoping that she'd end up having a bible study with JW's where she lived and get baptised which would have made her "available" to me. If I'm honest with myself, my doubts only really resurfaced in my mind because, all of a sudden, there was something worth having if they were valid. The thing is, maybe the girl you're interested in never really had doubts before.

    I never said to the girl that I wanted to break anything off as we hadn't got together. By the time I knew for sure that she wanted to get to know me better so that we could try to be with each other, my doubts were already too active to be ignored and had motivated me to start my research. I told her that I couldn't be with her if I was to remain one of Jehovah's Witnesses as I wanted to do what I believed was right and that it wouldn't be fair on her either, due to the different way of life. I then told her I had doubts, and that I wouldn't be surprised if I stopped believing. But I didn't open up about what my doubts were. I needed time (months) to myself to sort things out, without discussing what it was I doubted with her.

    So, you see, I had already done some critical thinking at that stage. I suspect your girl has, too. But is she open enough to act on those thoughts? Now there's a question.

    Moving forward, don't give the impression that you're seriously considering becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses. If she thinks you might take the plunge one day, she'll almost certainly make herself wait for you. It is so important that you keep your relationship as loving and as close as possible without being pushy or inferring you'll ever get baptised. As long as she has you as a possibility that's currently out of reach, she won't be happy where she is if she really does feel the way you think she does.

    On the other hand, you need to appear open-minded. As you have already discussed religion, you will need to be willing to ostensibly consider what the Watchtower Society tells her to teach you.

    I think the best way for you to get her thinking processes going is to pick a topic that you know is a weak point in the Watchtower's set of doctrines. Let her do the JW teaching bit; listen; show reasonableness; tell her you'll take whatever literature is relevant and look at it; tell her you may not agree with all of it; tell her you'll compare it with what the bible says. Then, when you feel is a good time (this could be days or weeks later - don't push it), gently allude to something that poses the religion a problem. Don't go overboard and try to smash the teaching to pieces. Just infer that you don't quite see how things match and that you're still looking at it. She probably won't be able to resist looking up whatever it is herself so that she can be ready to "correct" you. Maybe it will start something.

    For example, I understand the Society's brochure on the trinity is full of out-of-context quotes of various people and contains misleading information about historical beliefs. (I haven't checked this myself; just read about it sometime ago.) If you wanted to use this, you could strike up a discussion about how different the JW stance on the trinity is from other Christians and ask why. If she doesn't give you the brochure, ask where she gets her information from and it's likely she'll give you a copy. Don't give the impression you're lapping it all up and believe every word she says. Remain objective and fair. Tell her you'll read it and look up the scriptures and references. Then continue to be there for her. Keep close. Maybe show a nice, modest gesture by way of a complimentary email or card. (A Valentine's Day card or gift would likely not be a good idea as it could upset her conscience again.) At some point, when you're discussing the trinity again, mention that you looked up so-and-so and didn't see how it made sense because it seemed to be saying something different. If she asks you what it says, then you can tell her. Don't force it. Move on to the next thing. Then, another time, do the same thing again with a different section and quote from the brochure. Who knows? She may even ask to see the references which have been misquoted for herself. (This would involved purhasing/borrowing some original material for reference, which is why so many Witnesses never find out.)

    This is just one idea, and possibly not the right one for you/her. Run something by us before you use it, or post back for more suggestions.

    There are people here who have been married for half of their lives as witnesses and one member wants to get out. They know that person better than anybody in the world, and they're experts on witness beliefs and fallacies, and they still have no idea how to help them out. That's because the process cannot possibly work if there is an external pressure on the person concerned. If anybody had tried it with me I'd have gone running back in a heartbeat, cut that person off, and not miss a meeting for five years. This is the nature of her attachment. There is nothing you can do. If she thinks she loves it and wants it, you must let her work out for herself why she's wrong. There is no way to tell her.

    And there it is. You cannot tell someone something and expect them to believe it if they're too scared to think. You have to allow her to have her own reaction; but maybe, just maybe, you can be the catalyst. If you proceed, I hope she is as logical a thinker as you say she is.

    Post back here as much as you like. Take your time in thinking about what you will do, and don't rush yourself or her. All the best, whatever you decide to do.

  • Jenlet
    Jenlet

    "I asked her if she will trust in the bible or in the company"

    I thought this was a very interesting question on your part.

    JWs always put the company first. But they are taught to hide this from others. They are told to tell people "The Bible says ...", rather than "The Society says ...", so as not to tip their hand as to the real source of the rules they are expected to live by.

    I don't have much advice except to parrot what others have mentioned about baptism - don't do it. Joining the JWs leads to misery and mental illness.

  • svennibenni
    svennibenni

    Hi thank you all folks for your replies I REALLY appreciate this !!!!

    When I just read the posts that came after I went to bed I was really struck. How is it possible that such an organisation that brainwashes the mind of members so entirely is still allowed and not be punished after all ? I heard lots of things and read quite a bid. But the way you all tell things speaks for itself. How could you have escaped from that cage? It is soooo bitter. How can people still think it is right what they do when they could see - if they wanted to - how things turn out for several members (=victims)

    Do you think it matters how old she is ? Is there any progression or could one stop it if it is "in time" ? I'm so confused. Please forgive me when this all is a bit mixed up, but I just dont know how to get out - maybe I need a doctor as well.... This relationship has started around 5 month ago and I never loved anyone more than her - not even myself. I kinda know that I cannot pretend to be a JW for very long although I'm good at pretending... but what I hear is so terrible - how can I sincerely stand up in front of many people and say to be proud to be a JW. It's disgusting. So it seems there is only one way out.... or to try to get her off that bullshit. Maybe ask her one question per week there is no explanation for ... and let her find out herself...

    We just had a phone call and although she seems to be passionate she tears down walls all the time... when you said no holidays.... we have been talking about where we go first and what places she wants to visit and so on. She told me that it's over OK, but now she is more passionate than ever in our calls. Still she tells me that she has her principles and doubts BUT she calls me every now and then - at least 5 times a day on my mobile. She doesnt care of how much money it costs - even if I have to work she rather stays on the phone just to listen to me and telling me that she doesnt want to miss me every single minute. Her preparings for the meetings just take a tiny second compared to what time we spend together. Maybe this is already a sign that SHE wants to get out of that ???

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